Studying The Blade- The SAM DPS Guide

Been messing and trying to switch from the 1 sen opener for savage but i can't seem to be able to output as much damage as the 1 sen opener.
For exemple v3s dummy i do 4.55-4.6 1 sen while 3 sen opener is slightly under it, in raid i top at average at 4.6 +- for 3S with nin+balance+war slash res and 4.7 with 1s opener...
Should i bump my sks for the 3s or should i keep as is and continue with the 1s
Im at 1482 crit / 1654 dh / 1037 sks.

You're already naturally clipping 1 sen at that sksp amount

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Originally Posted by Hacchan

Been messing and trying to switch from the 1 sen opener for savage but i can't seem to be able to output as much damage as the 1 sen opener.
For exemple v3s dummy i do 4.55-4.6 1 sen while 3 sen opener is slightly under it, in raid i top at average at 4.6 +- for 3S with nin+balance+war slash res and 4.7 with 1s opener...

Should i bump my sks for the 3s or should i keep as is and continue with the 1s
Im at 1482 crit / 1654 dh / 1037 sks.

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The 1 Sen and 3 Sen opener has varying spikes of damage just due to the nature of the SAM rotation, then evens out by the end. There's a great graph in The Balance discord showing this.

At the 3 minute mark, the 3 Sen is at a lower point than the 1 Sen then spikes above it. You should notice Hagakure and Meikyo coming off CD a few seconds before 3 minutes.

But with your SkS and the 1 Sen, you should be experiencing Hagakure's CD coming up but you're full on Sen and have another finisher. How are you dealing with that? Do you Midare and delay using Hagakure? With the 3 Sen rotation you basically always have 3 Sen to consume as the Hagakure comes up without much exception.

So after doing some more testing, I've been seeing positive results by sacrificing even more direct hit for determination. So as of now I am prioritizing Crit > Det > DH.

I'd imagine we'd want DH to at least be a certain value, but I think stacking it at the expense of crit and maybe det is a detriment overall to DPS. As my DH lowers I'll see how it effects my DPS, there's only so much I can do with my current gear. But yeah, stacking crit has been the single best thing for my DPS so far.

You shouldn't ever simply stack one stat you should keep them all relatively balanced while reaching a sksp tier you are happy with. All stats are too close at this moment to sacrifice one over the other.

Can someone explain why even the most top-tier SAMs aren't using Seigan very frequently? Even on fights like O3S where there is frequent, predictable AoE damage going out, they rarely use this ability more than 5 or 6 times per fight (many of them not using it at all). Some quick math says it's a more efficient use of kenki than Shinten (13.33 potency per kenki vs 12 ppk), and yet even the best in the world don't really bother taking advantage of that.

I always figured that exemplary usage Third Eye + Seigan would be one of the things that separated good SAMs from great ones, but should I really even bother having it on my bars?

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Originally Posted by knotwrite

Can someone explain why even the most top-tier SAMs aren't using Seigan very frequently? Even on fights like O3S where there is frequent, predictable AoE damage going out, they rarely use this ability more than 5 or 6 times per fight (many of them not using it at all). Some quick math says it's a more efficient use of kenki than Shinten (13.33 potency per kenki vs 12 ppk), and yet even the best in the world don't really bother taking advantage of that.

I always figured that exemplary usage Third Eye + Seigan would be one of the things that separated good SAMs from great ones, but should I really even bother having it on my bars?

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It's definitely worth using, but I think it just gets lost when people are focusing on mechanics and their regular rotation.

So need some help with rotation issue I'm running into. How do you all deal with the first Meikyo Shisui and lining that up with the next hagakure? I always end up either ahead by to much when i get 3 sens leaving hagakure still ticking on CD or just going into a midare and than hagakure is on CD for the time it takes to get 3 new sen.

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Originally Posted by knotwrite

Can someone explain why even the most top-tier SAMs aren't using Seigan very frequently?

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The highest my Seigan has ever contributed, was 1.5% or so of my total damage dealt over a Susano clear. You can get 4 max per minute, if everything lines up absolutely perfect. But it probably won't, and I think that's why some people don't bother with it too much right now. It's worth it to have on your bar, for sure, you just have to really have the fight down to a perfect math to get the full 4 per minute.

I think if the proc window for being hit was longer than 5 seconds, it might be a little more 'approachable'. Right now, your rotation just might not line up well enough to pop Third-Eye as an oGCD in preparation of incoming damage. Sometimes, you might be able to line up the 5 second window well enough, but you'd rather press Kaiten at that exact moment since it would line up with your rotation better. That's why I'm not using it right now, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

So after doing some more testing, I've been seeing positive results by sacrificing even more direct hit for determination. So as of now I am prioritizing Crit > Det > DH.

I'd imagine we'd want DH to at least be a certain value, but I think stacking it at the expense of crit and maybe det is a detriment overall to DPS. As my DH lowers I'll see how it effects my DPS, there's only so much I can do with my current gear. But yeah, stacking crit has been the single best thing for my DPS so far.

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Hmm it depend really.. Hard to explain how i handle it as i probably dont function to godtier lol but i just adapt on the fly and feeling.
At 1034 sks i usually do 2 midare instead of 1 before the 2nd hagakure, sounds weird but if i do not do like this i always end up with hagakure ready long before meikyo (and i tend to like having them in sync to double weave Shinten)
But aside that idk, i have most of the rotation working on feeling and muscle memory so i dont notice specific change/clipping that people could notice etc lol

i've lowered my SKS to 950+- and adjusted my deter up and it seemed to do fine, the only issue i have is i end up with hagakure out of cd before meikyo (at our 30-40s cd on guren, i'd have to count which hagakure it is) but my dps seems to be right on par/ slightly above what i had.

How are some of these Sams on FFlogs pulling 5k+ dps in v3s

Been a month since savage is out. My guess is that they have their i345 weapon with couple of i340 savage gears and couple of pentamelds.

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Originally Posted by Sinsain

How are some of these Sams on FFlogs pulling 5k+ dps in v3s

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There's a lot of factors to remember when looking for 'validation' there.

Most importantly, Balance is the only filtered damage increase there. You can't forget that Embolden, Spear/Arrow, and other damage increases are definitely present, but not well represented at a glance. Look into those high number runs and see the uptime of those buffs, or how many are stacked, etc etc.

Two, this raid tier was smashed pretty quickly by more than the average amount of groups. Given the amount of damage SAM does and how many people are playing it right now, it's almost certain that raid groups prioritized giving their SAM the 345 weapon. If not that, the 340 weapon tome/upgrade material.

Three- Clear times. The faster you clear, the higher your sustained numbers will be. And there's some SAM that are in parties clearing 1-2 minutes ahead of other teams for example.

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Originally Posted by Sinsain

How are some of these Sams on FFlogs pulling 5k+ dps in v3s

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Uptime and trying to stay true to rotational perfection as well as possible. Gear. Party composition. The classic melee DPS hurdle is keeping up with your rotation while dealing with mechanics appropriately. There is no "trick" to doing a lot of DPS on any boss, really.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

Three- Clear times. The faster you clear, the higher your sustained numbers will be. And there's some SAM that are in parties clearing 1-2 minutes ahead of other teams for example.

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Not necessarily true as any kill that is sub-8.30ish entirely skips the final add phase, which has a LOT of padding potential. Hitting an additional Mindjack phase probably dumpsters your DPS though.

Hi all,

Hoping someone can point me in the right direction re: openers. My static comp is: WM, DRK, BRD, DRG, SUM, PLD, AST. Should I be going with 1 sen opener or 3 sen opener?

Mostly asking for Omega Savage use. Would love some suggestions / thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Samick

Hi all,

Hoping someone can point me in the right direction re: openers. My static comp is: WM, DRK, BRD, DRG, SUM, PLD, AST. Should I be going with 1 sen opener or 3 sen opener?

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Given the presence of a Dragoon, 1-Sen should technically be better, however since your sksp is around 1.2k or so I would still prefer going with the 3-Sen for smoother Hagakure timings. But that's just personal preference. Or look into using one of the modified 1-Sen openers:

Hakaze - Shifu - Kasha - Hakaze - Jinpu - Kaiten - Higanbana - Gekko - Meikyo + Hagakure - Yukikaze - Gekko - Guren - Kasha - Kaiten - Midare Setsugekka

OR

Hakaze - Jinpu - Gekko - Hagakure - Hakaze - Shifu - Kasha - Meikyo + Kaiten - Higanabana - Yukikaze - Kasha - Guren - Gekko - Kaiten - Midare Setsugekka

Both of these are slightly modified from the classic 1-Sen to make the second Hagakure usage line up better. You want to stay away from having to Enpi as much as possible.

So im currently updating my bis and i'd like to know for which i should go for.
DH and det favored but with crit balanced to 1k at least http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/12U55
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/12U59
DH and heavier DET focused build at 1k sks http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/12U59
Same build but with a slightly lower sks (950 which is around what i'm usually at) http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/12U5E

Im still debating on one of those three and dont know which one i should aim, as crit seems to be the underdog for SAM.
Also i'm favoring 1-sen opener by default (and as i have a sks around 950-980 im more used to) but if i go for the 1k sks is it better to use the 3 sen opener for it or the alternate 1-sen ?
Im not focusing on craft equipment considering the pricing, the meld time and also im not a crafter xD

Right now I can do about 4.7K DPS on the dummy. My goal is to get up to 5000. Anyone know how I can do that? I seem to be having issues lining up my Hagakures and Higabanas

So what's the stat priority for SAM? I keep seing some people saying DET other people saying SkS...

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Originally Posted by Thyranne

So what's the stat priority for SAM? I keep seing some people saying DET other people saying SkS...

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Simply put- It's not as easy a thing to track anymore.

From what I gather from all sources- For whichever stat you focus on, your other stats increase in value. In a very broad sense, that means they all are important, aside from SKS which seems to be a very, "Your mileage may vary" stat. Now... What I understand, is that if you can hit a specific stat threshold (CRT points + DHR points=3,500 approximately, less if you have a SCH or other Crit modifiers), CRT becomes the best stat to put the majority of your points towards. If you don't have the capability to do so (raid drops weren't kind, etc), then you'll want to go with DHR+DET, while meeting a SKS tier that works for your latency, and party comp (the opener you will use).

Full disclosure- I have like, negative affinity with math, so I'm just a messenger for what the community's been finding, nothing more. There's all kinds of spreadsheets and discord links in the thread to show where people are finding this info, but the consensus has been changing so often about stats that it's kind of not worth updating definitively yet.

Hi all I would like to know I'm going to start on stuff http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/12UC8 I play the opener 3 sen ese what it is good or so I aim too high level viva thank you for your answers if I'm trying too high that someone could tell me how much I should be ^^ I play the opener 3 sen ese what it is good or so I aim too high level viva thank you for your answers if I'm trying too high that someone could tell me how much I should be ^^

I know this thread is a couple months old but Ive seen multiples times here where someone uses Kaiten > Higanbana. Ive also read on reddit and a couple other pages that Kaiten does NOT buff Higanbana's DoT. Which is the truth?

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Originally Posted by svauss

I know this thread is a couple months old but Ive seen multiples times here where someone uses Kaiten > Higanbana. Ive also read on reddit and a couple other pages that Kaiten does NOT buff Higanbana's DoT. Which is the truth?

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Higanbana's DoT is affected by Kaiten. You can try on a dummy and check the dot's damage for each tick with and without Kaiten.

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Originally Posted by svauss

I know this thread is a couple months old but Ive seen multiples times here where someone uses Kaiten > Higanbana. Ive also read on reddit and a couple other pages that Kaiten does NOT buff Higanbana's DoT. Which is the truth?

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Tooltip of kaiten specify "weaponskill" and all Iajustsu are weaponskills. It' just doesn't works with ability, meaning all hissatsu (guren, shinten, etc)

So kaiten doesn't buff guren... good to know... seems I've been wasting 20 kenki to buff guren for nothing... this will mean dropping more guren since I don't have to wait for the extra kenki build up...

tried to comparing my clear run to other sam with similar clear time, everything is about the same except they did almost 20 more Shinten than me... HOW????
Higanbana casts were similar, Hagakure usage was similar, everything i could think of are kinda similar, but 20 shinten difference??

Have you dash in/out? Did they use meditation? Did you have the same sen when hagakure? Did you use midare instead of waiting 1/2 GCD before hagakure? Their is a lot of things to think of ^^

Hey all has someone an idea which gear i should aim for ? I would like to get into raiding with my sam so i am currently lost xD

So I saw this updated on the reddit page for 4.1 and wanted to know what some of the people here think of it. https://i.imgur.com/DVnJ2BD.png

It's showing DH > DET > SkS > CRT for our priority system with SkS being within a certain range. Does that sound like what most people are going with?

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Originally Posted by ElasmoFan

So I saw this updated on the reddit page for 4.1 and wanted to know what some of the people here think of it. https://i.imgur.com/DVnJ2BD.png

It's showing DH > DET > SkS > CRT for our priority system with SkS being within a certain range. Does that sound like what most people are going with?

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Firstly, sub-stats have never been important enough to really sway your damage far in one direction or the other. You're not going to go from 70th to 90th for example, from going with the optimal setup compared to non-optimal, as long as it's all the same item level (don't really worry). But what I've seen from the more well-known community theory-crafters, is that as one, or multiple stats increase, the values of others also increases. i.e. If you focus only on dumping all points into CRT, at some point or the other, all other stats will eventually be more powerful to invest into. Vice versa, as well. It's a balancing game. Prioritize one, don't completely disregard any.

Secondly, SkS is probably the most influential stat because an amount that's too high, or too low can definitely throw some cooldown alignments off from where they should be. No one specific amount is universally agreed upon because latency, and delays can affect which tier relates most to your situation.

Simple answer~ I believe most people have been operating under the assumption that DH is most worthwhile on SAM, then worrying about meeting their preferred SkS threshold/tier. Other substats fall into place based on the first two considerations, while materia should almost always be able to go towards DH. Anything other than DH/SkS that's not 'optimized' isn't really going to limit your DPS ceiling enough (that I know of) to worry about, compared to you as a player. It's never bad to min/max though, so take that as you will.

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Originally Posted by PheonixCain

tried to comparing my clear run to other sam with similar clear time, everything is about the same except they did almost 20 more Shinten than me... HOW????
Higanbana casts were similar, Hagakure usage was similar, everything i could think of are kinda similar, but 20 shinten difference??

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They could have been hitting more positionals or had more SkS so they could get more Kenki than you throughout the fight.

Can anybody help me on Sam? I'm only lvl 52 and I have the first kenki ability. Is there a reliable rotation I can use until I get the rest of my abilities? Also, does anybody have any suggestions on maintaining speed? REALLY like playing Sam and don't want to give it up. Thanks in advance.

There isn't much to it, really,
You first have to go through the Kasha combo for the Shifu buff.
Then the Gekko combo for the Jinpu buff.
Then and only then Yukikaze.

Kasha > Gekko > Yukikaze.

Right now you can't Kaiten Higanbana on the get-go, but later on with the Kenki accumulation improvement trait you'll be able to Kasha > Jinpu > Higanbana before Gekko.

This, in my opinion, will be the most typical opener entering this expansion.