Repair NPCs in Dungeons

Wow.. I don't know if I've ever seen this many walls of text on a thread lol

TLDR; Level crafters if you want to repair in a dungeon. It takes like 4 hours to get from 1-50, you could've leveled 2 in the time spent ranting on this thread.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

You're probably one of the few honest poster's I've seen, that instead of trying to create disingenuous "They don't care" or "They don't try to discuss it", literally just comes forward and says "I don't care what you think, I like it this way."

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This is exactly what everyone is already doing, our arguments are obviously because we like the current system and don't think it's necessary. Opinions about lore and crafting are the same, we like it this way, and like Fyce said, it won't change our opinion although we respect yours. :)

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

This is exactly what everyone is already doing, our arguments are obviously because we like the current system and don't think it's necessary. Opinions about lore and crafting are the same, we like it this way, and like Fyce said, it won't change our opinion although we respect yours. :)

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No, people have been saying "It's wrong because of Lore" when that's not the case at all. As I have pointed out, just about every single dungoun (There are a few exceptions) has an NPC posted out the front of them. These NPC's could easily migrate inside the dungoun when you start, and have a piece of flavor text and serve the purpose of repairing gear.

Objectively, there is something different between saying "I don't like it so I don't want it" and "I don't like it because you're wrong about these things." One implies the other party is wrong for their belief. The other shows that you just prefer things different. I can respect the second one more instead of hiding behind the guise of 'reasons.'

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

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Yet if people came here and just said "nah. I don't want this implemented", I can guarantee they'd get jumped on and demanded an explanation. Those arguments are personal explanations. To some people, it IS wrong because of lore and people are not happy with the proposed solutions. If it makes you feel better, I'll leave it as I don't like this idea, and I don't want it implemented.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Yet if people came here and just said "nah. I don't want this implemented", I can guarantee they'd get jumped on and demanded an explanation. Those arguments are personal explanations. To some people, it IS wrong because of lore and people are not happy with the proposed solutions. If it makes you feel better, I'll leave it as I don't like this idea, and I don't want it implemented.

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Honestly I've seen people frequently go into topics saying "I dislike this" but they don't try to really 'disprove' of the OP. When you try to disprove something, you put yourself in the public arena for discussion. Both sides need to be ready to defend their beliefs if they put them forward. However, simply disagreeing is fine with me.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

As I have pointed out, just about every single dungoun (There are a few exceptions) has an NPC posted out the front of them. These NPC's could easily migrate inside the dungoun when you start, and have a piece of flavor text and serve the purpose of repairing gear.

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I'd just like to point out that for every dungeon except Halatali hard mode, there is no lore reason fitting for a repair npc. Even for the npcs outside the dungeon, they are not trained in being able to repair gear and are stationed as sentry to prevent unauthorized people from entering, or trying to stop whatever is in there from leaving. Like someone else said, it would make more sense that if they entered, for them to be helping you fight, but in most dungeons you see how well that turns out for any npc ally.

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Originally Posted by ArikDimas

I'd just like to point out that for every dungeon except Halatali hard mode, there is no lore reason fitting for a repair npc. Even for the npcs outside the dungeon, they are not trained in being able to repair gear and are stationed as sentry to prevent unauthorized people from entering, or trying to stop whatever is in there from leaving. Like someone else said, it would make more sense that if they entered, for them to be helping you fight, but in most dungeons you see how well that turns out for any npc ally.

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Ok, what's your source to say the following:
1) that they would not be capable of repairing gear,
2) That they would not be capable of taking up a tradeskill?

You have full well aknowledged that the NPC's outside the dungoun would be able to enter and try to assist in their own way, but their guard duties bind them to the entrance. The difference, in this scenario, is the difference between standing on the Inside of a door and Outside of a door.

To say the least, it's a very flimsy reason, because it relies on being predicated by the belief (not proof) that the members of a GC Would not have any training in the repair of their own gear, especially with a magical McGuffin like Dark Matter around.

Again, this will link back to Tataru. A character with a diverse amount of attempts at various different professions, it is clear that the character, PC or NPC, are able to take up various professions. For a character like Tataru who is a Miner, Arcanist (albeit a poor one) and a Weaver. To a character like Thancred who is a Rogue/Gladiator.

Well, for 1 and 2, that's more for you to prove that they can than for me to prove they can't since pre-existing lore shows that they can't, outside of certain more plot important npcs like the two you mentioned. For the most part, an npc has never been shown to cross class, except for a few early level situations where certain quest specific npcs have access to cure from conjurer. Outside of that, we have npcs with jobs that don't even have access to their cross classes, such as all the dragoons (someone correct me if I'm wrong on this). There are also npcs that have access to skills that go beyond what we can do, such as Alphinaud in the HW story. But there's no evidence of an npc being able to cross class outside of cure (but really, that itself is a different can of worms when you think about that one npc in the conjurer quest line who only wanted to use healing magick), excluding menders.

About a sentry being inside vs outside a dungeon, in some dungeons we really have no idea how deep inside the dungeon we actually are when we start. And with some dungeons, you have to remember that there are enemies within the first room, or viewing the first room from the hall, if there was a lone guard standing inside, more likely than not he would get attacked when his job is supposed to be preventing people from getting themselves hurt by going in.

Going back to Tataru and including Thancred, someone mentioned before that lore has already shown their growth into multi classing, while there is nothing showing a generic guards ability to do anything besides what their weapon shows. Also, as you pointed out with Tataru and being an Arcanist, npcs are not like the WoL, they can not just be any class or job without issue as they have limits to what they can do while protgaonist syndrome allows us to surpass those limits.

Overall, I don't care about the issue that much, I've tended to side with the people against it mainly cause I interpreted the people for it as being more hostile early on about this. I just don't agree with the statement that the lore can support them being in there and am usually against the idea of retconning lore to fit something in.

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Originally Posted by ArikDimas

Well, for 1 and 2, that's more for you to prove that they can than for me to prove they can't since pre-existing lore shows that they can't, outside of certain more plot important npcs like the two you mentioned. For the most part, an npc has never been shown to cross class, except for a few early level situations where certain quest specific npcs have access to cure from conjurer. Outside of that, we have npcs with jobs that don't even have access to their cross classes, such as all the dragoons (someone correct me if I'm wrong on this). There are also npcs that have access to skills that go beyond what we can do, such as Alphinaud in the HW story. But there's no evidence of an npc being able to cross class outside of cure (but really, that itself is a different can of worms when you think about that one npc in the conjurer quest line who only wanted to use healing magick), excluding menders.

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So, permit me to get this straight:
You are suggesting that, outside of situations that exist in the game, I need to prove that such situations exist? No, the fact that the situations exist is more indictive of the nature of there being characters that accept professions that exceed the baseline of a single class/job. What needs to be proven, is that there isn't this occurance, because currently there is evidence that it does indeed exist.

Simply put, the burden of proof is on you (And those who claim it defies lore that the NPC's would have the ability to have the ability to repair gear.) Currently, the major reason I dislike this arguement is because it's an arguement born of ignorance. You have no way to prove your assertion, but you are willing to make it. MEanwhile, we have examples (Even if they are limited, it is still more than the opposition's 0) that displays characters who are able to take on multiple professions.

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About a sentry being inside vs outside a dungeon, in some dungeons we really have no idea how deep inside the dungeon we actually are when we start. And with some dungeons, you have to remember that there are enemies within the first room, or viewing the first room from the hall, if there was a lone guard standing inside, more likely than not he would get attacked when his job is supposed to be preventing people from getting themselves hurt by going in.

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Considering that the NPC simultaneously exists both within and without the dungoun in the given circumstance, it would not be unrealistic to expect that the NPC would "Follow" you in to the entrance, and hold at the entrance. In a way, this is also a method of supporting the PC, as it allows them to know they have a spot they can return to should everything go wrong. It further gives credence to the fact some NPC's, such as the one who watches over the Aurum Vale, even go so far as telling you that they will pull you out should you spend too long in there for your own safety.

Once more, Lore does not prevent the NPC's from entering. An arbitrary belief that the NPC's can not enter is what prevents it, to many people, and this is the fallacy that I contend with very passionately.

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Going back to Tataru and including Thancred, someone mentioned before that lore has already shown their growth into multi classing, while there is nothing showing a generic guards ability to do anything besides what their weapon shows. Also, as you pointed out with Tataru and being an Arcanist, npcs are not like the WoL, they can not just be any class or job without issue as they have limits to what they can do while protgaonist syndrome allows us to surpass those limits.

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Lore that suggests their growth was added in retroactively, and was not originally part of their character. In these cases, the maleable lore allowed them to have these traits added to their character after their introduction, and as has been pointed out, only serves to create a more diverse and rich character. The same can be done with NPC's, and is the reasoning behind the "Lore is Maleable" arguement.

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Overall, I don't care about the issue that much, I've tended to side with the people against it mainly cause I interpreted the people for it as being more hostile early on about this. I just don't agree with the statement that the lore can support them being in there and am usually against the idea of retconning lore to fit something in.

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Well, my appologies if I have come off as overly harsh to anyone. I am a very heated person, and I understand that can definitely be considered very opressive to many people.

I must be forgetting where within the game it shows where a generic soldier knows how to repair gear, which is why I was saying it's your job to prove they can and not mine to prove they can't. Could you tell me where in game npcs outside of menders show the ability to repair gear?

With the second point, I have to stick with the point that the soldiers we see outside of some dungeons are sentries in most cases, and not tasked with assisting you, just keeping unauthorized people outside of it. If they did come in to drag us to a safe zone should we fall, they would more likely die trying to drag 4 corpses away from whatever killed them. And with some dungeons such as Stone Vigil hard, it's hard to say whether it is the same npc or not because of how similar they look in their armor, and I think the ones in there for the second boss may have already been in there, but I could be wrong about that.

With lore being maleable, personably I'd rather have something big cause things to change rather than just changing it because they can. Admittedly this is going on me not remembering an instance of generic soldiers knowing how to repair gear, but say in 4.0 we get into full scale war with the Garleans, at that point, soldiers need to be able to act outside of their and learn how to handle various tasks outside of their normal duties in case of emergencies. Although that wouldn't fit repair npcs being in 2.0 and 3.0 dungeons.

And np about coming off as harsh, besides you weren't even in this on the first couple pages where I started taking that stance.

beyond all the provided reasons, brusque replies and weird lore text walls. why not have a repair npc? the existing system works just fine. durability is a thing. NPCs can repair it. we already have DPS who "forget" to dodge aoes. tanks who don't tank and healers who holy spam. this is just one more way for people who have no business being carried to avoid even an ounce of personal responsibility. as someone who HAS forgotten to mend and had all my gear break all at once, here is what you do: either hope no one notices your sub par numbers or own up to your mistake, bite your penalty, say sorry,repair and try again in a half hour

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Originally Posted by Jeibird

we already have DPS who "forget" to dodge aoes. tanks who don't tank and healers who holy spam.

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Good on them.

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Originally Posted by Jeibird

beyond all the provided reasons, brusque replies and weird lore text walls. why not have a repair npc? the existing system works just fine. durability is a thing. NPCs can repair it. we already have DPS who "forget" to dodge aoes. tanks who don't tank and healers who holy spam. this is just one more way for people who have no business being carried to avoid even an ounce of personal responsibility. as someone who HAS forgotten to mend and had all my gear break all at once, here is what you do: either hope no one notices your sub par numbers or own up to your mistake, bite your penalty, say sorry,repair and try again in a half hour

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This guy gets it.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

And reformatting the window to properly be scaled to account for the fact that there is no longer that option, and changing the fact that the payment option is no longer in there, and making sure that it checks that you have hte PROPER GRADE of a DIFFERENT ITEM, and making sure that it checks your current Repair %'s and makes sure to add it on properly. Seriously, it is so much more work than having an NPC that works EXACLTY HOW THEY ALREADY WORK.

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Like has been said, the system existed in 1.x, so it probably wouldn't be that tricky to implement the coding in itself. I admit I didn't play 1.x, so I don't know if that system used Dark Matter or not. As for UI, they could very well use the request meld window. And it's been mentioned (and if it hasn't, it should have been) that if they implemented this system, they'd probably implement it over-all instead of just inside of instances. So the 'tip' window wouldn't need to be removed, but it would have to be greyed out during instances due to the 'no trading' rules.
As for checking you have the proper grade, the melding system already checks to make sure you have the proper grade (or a higher one) of Carbonized Matter. So... that's nothing new either.

Yes, the coding would probably take up a bit of time, but once the system is there, it's there. No need to edit each dungeon because it'd be an over-all system based on the core programming.
With NPCs, the coding exists, yes. But they would still need to take the time to open up each dungeon map, decide on the proper place to put an NPC, edit the map to add that additional object/event... and probably come up with individual flavour text for each one of them. Sure, they could have mute Menders like in the cities, but... it'd avoid a lot of the "WTF is this guy doing here? D:" reactions if there was flavour text to explain it. That's also a lot of work.

And yes, theoretically those sentries outside might be able to repair things... But equally theoretically, the NPC Menders use tools of their trade. Did the sentries remember to bring their portable forge? ;p

Between player to player transactions (even if no gil or items change hands -- the payment for this service inside dungeons would simply be to make the person with broken equipment less useless), there's no need for flavour text. If players want that, they'll add it themselves through the chat and through emotes.

3 thoughts:

1) Lore is never a reason to do something or not do something. Developers make up the lore to be whatever they want it to be to justify what they do.
2) Armchair developers who think that putting something in is easy make me laugh. It tells me that they've never worked in game development before.
3) There is a good game design argument against having repair NPCs at the entrance of the dungeons. Gear damage is both a gil sink and a punishment for poor game play. It's not a coincidence that dying causes gear damage greater than anything else in the game. It's meant to punish players for dying without being too onerous. Also, if someone forgets to check and repair their gear before a DF, that's on them, and the gear breaking is a punishment for not being prepared. Having a repair NPC at the dungeon entrance sorta removes the punishment.

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Originally Posted by Jeibird

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I feel like you are basically echoing the sentiment of the majority of those that disagree with OP, sans the comment about holy spamming, but that is a subject for another thread (and I'm sure a new healer DPS thread will show up in due time).

There are situations in which you are going to need to mend in an instance, and yeah, it can be kind of annoying. That said, I still don't want to see a mender in Midas Savage, for instance, even after having been swindled too many times.

I know that the OP was referring to dungeons specifically, but I guess that just seems superfluous to me. My hand is starting to get all clammy from being held so much.

If you have memory issues, do your best to train yourself. Make a visit to the mender a Pavlovian response to queuing for a dungeon, for instance. You have a veritable cornucopia of options to aid you, but it seems like you aren't receptive to anything but your own suggestion.

I just want to leave my opinion: Having to leave a party because your gear breaks, and then getting a 30m penalty because humans can forget things sometimes is in my eyes, a little retarded.

Things that could be as an alternative:

- Better UX/UI for gear durability, because currently it only shows 10% and then it's already too late. It could also be visualized better.
- Allow temporarily leaving a dungeon to repair.
- Allow others to repair your gear as long as you have the dark matter required.
- Make the crafting class required less random. Why does my bard weapon randomly require an alchemist instead of blacksmith out of nowhere?

I'd like to point something out to everyone here that isn't a crafter-
If you can't repair your own gear, YOUR GEAR IS DAMAGED AND CAN BE REPAIRED.

What do I mean by this? well NPC's don't "over" repair. they only top you off at 100%. after killing 1 thing, it's back down to 99%. So guess what you non crafters! Your gear needs repaired right now!

It bears repeating... the moment after the NPC repairs you back to 100%? you kill 1 ladybug and its at 99%. So you can fling the "I forget sometimes" argument all you want, but you have to go for a very, VERY long time without repairing before you hit those warnings.

Sorry, I simply can't sympathize with that argument. you can repair before every duty- if you do, you CAN forget once, twice even. 3 times! However, if the time you forgot was the time it broke, you forgot SEVERAL other times. Gear doesn't just break, even after a few wipes. You let it sit and rot. And now your gear is broke and you're dragging down everyone else. I think a 30m timeout is acceptable. At the very least it will leave a bitter taste and you'll more readily remember?


Crafters who CAN repair have the benefit of having gear repaired over 100% and it can't be repaired again until it's at 99% again. These are the folks who will likely forget to even check their durability levels. At which point it becomes which of us remembered to stock up on dark matters. I can be a LITTLE more lenient here, but how long can you go on with 14 dark matters before you decide to buy more?

I really don't get what the issue is. Check your gear before you queue for anything. Dying and gaining any kind of EXP from kills reduces your gear's durability (and why places like Frontlines incurs no durability loss- no EXP gains). If you're expecting to die, or wipe, a lot, repair your gear if you think it will be too low to last before the duty is complete. If you can't be bothered to check up on it, that's on you.

You only need to get crafters up to level 50 to repair all i/lvl gear currently. It's easy to ask a friend who has higher level crafters to power-level you. Now you can repair without needing to invest in crafting gear or anything. I've even done this for a few people who don't like or want to craft, but the convenience of being able to repair your gear whenever is nice. Just bring the person mats. Keeping 1 stack of dark matter isn't much space to "waste" (*dramatic sarcasm* OMG! 1 slot is so much space!), considering 99 repairs your gear completely about 8 times (that's with me generally waiting until it pops up on screen saying the durability for certain items is now at 10%), I'd say it's probably the 1 slot well spent.

Even though I'm that lazy about checking gear durability on my main because I keep dark matters stocked (sits on my hotbar so I always see when I need to buy more), when I'm playing my ALT(S) with no such convenience, first thing I do is check their gear before I plan to queue into a dungeon. A safe haven is never too far away and neither are repair NPCs. >_> My husband even has no crafters and has never forgotten to repair since 2013; wonder why that is?

I can't sympathize with the argument either. Make it a habit to just check your gear before queuing for anything. If your gear breaks because you were too lazy to check for an extended period of time (100% -> 0% is a long road), you deserve that penalty. Even then, chances are you'll be kicked from a party, meaning you won't even get a penalty, just time loss from how long it took you to queue inside in the first place.

FFXIV is pretty lenient about repairing NPCs and repairing gear in general. Most games I played before this had either NPCs that could repair in only major cities or major outposts, no self repairing system, no NPCs in dungeons that could repair and even some where gear could be shattered (only repairable at 1 to 4 major cities) due to players actually breaking your gear "beyond normal repair."

EDIT; Debating points:
1) Safe havens with repair NPCs are on every map, none of which are too far away.
2) If you plan on running a dungeon, it's your responsibility as a player to check your own gear and ensure it will hold.
3) You don't need to be a player that plans to craft to get the perks of repairing your own gear; simply getting power-leveled to 50 on your crafters will suffice. Their gear or melds don't matter, only the level.
4) Chances are that if your gear breaks because you're an irresponsible player, you will probably be kicked by a party that is perceptive to the sudden loss of speed/DPS and where it is originating from, meaning you won't even incur the penalty. You will need to re-queue, though.
5) Worse comes to worst, repair immediately after a dungeon run. If you're doing anything decent, you will always have the gil to repair, even when done that frequently.
6) Habit. Make gear checking a habit. (Basically rehashing 2.)

If this gets added, might as well just remove durability altogether. What would the point of having it even be??

As it is, people who've leveled crafters get the added convenience of being able to repair in dungeons. Seems fair to me. I don't really understand how people who don't have crafters leveled forget to repair... surely you have to do it all the time?

If all your stuff breaks at once then... lesson learned?

Always figured the ability to self-repair gear was a "Bonus" reward for leveling a crafting class? (the norm reward being the ability to craft stuff u normally would have to buy in some way). thou I am not against players able to repair other players gear as long as 1 has the mats for it & there is no gil cost, like self-repairing (but thats my personal opinion)

any back to killing enemy npc's for various reasons, good day.

Durability exists as a gold sink.

The only thing i want is a way to show my average gear durability on screen/UI. Like next to the clock. Is that so much to ask? It's going to help forgetful people like me not have to leave a party and make them wait forever or even abandon(especially when you have to leave as a tank/healer) and induce me a 30m penalty. Nobody goes away healthier.

Seems to me like OP can't be assed keeping track of this stuff and staying on top of it

Imagine, you're in Tam Tara hard mode getting past the creepy stuff and suddenly in one of the corridors

A random NPC just standing there for eternity probably having gone insane from being there for all that time, just waiting to repair the gear of adventurers that drop by every once in a while.

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Originally Posted by DynamoAce

Imagine, you're in Tam Tara hard mode getting past the creepy stuff and suddenly in one of the corridors

A random NPC just standing there for eternity probably having gone insane from being there for all that time, just waiting for repair the gear of adventurers that drop by every once in a while.

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"Hey, nice weather we're having, how was your day?" The NPC says

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Originally Posted by DynamoAce

Imagine, you're in Tam Tara hard mode getting past the creepy stuff and suddenly in one of the corridors

A random NPC just standing there for eternity probably having gone insane from being there for all that time, just waiting for repair the gear of adventurers that drop by every once in a while.

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This gives me Resident Evil flashbacks. xD

"Welcome!" *Opens trench coat* "What are you repairin?"

Just by the title, no.

Except if you can give me a good lore reason as why a blacksmith would gently wait for us in the Coil of Bahamut or in Alexander in case we need repairs.

It is the players' responsibility to repair their gear before they enter an instance.
If they have crafters leveled then they should keep some dark matter in their inventories.

Don't spoil the community more.

Allowing crafters to repair other players gear is an option I am willing to consider. But not adding NPCs in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Arutan

Just by the title, no.

Except if you can give me a good lore reason as why a blacksmith would gently wait for us in the Coil of Bahamut or in Alexander in case we need repairs.

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Same reason the Allagan droids are still active all over the place to this day!

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Originally Posted by Yeol

It is the players' responsibility to repair their gear before they enter an instance.

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First Wall PUG I was in had to quit due to the Tank's gear breaking, we don't need more mechanics that punish everyone for someone's mistakes. Arguing against this is pretty lame really, there's no good reason for making things harder than they are in this way.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

Allowing crafters to repair other players gear is an option I am willing to consider. But not adding NPCs in dungeons.

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Which would be kind of ironic when one considers in V1 that was the only way to get gear repaired to 100% at all, NPCs would only repair to 75%.

This would be pretty nice. Slap them at the start of every dungeon/raid. Could be Rowena Merchants she sent out there trying to make a buck too, profiting from Adventurers needing Repairs. In cases of like, Allagan Ruins use Droids. Something like World of Darkness could have a voidsent that is just very greedy for gold. Sharlayan constructs in Gubal and Anti-Tower and the Arboretum, etc...

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Originally Posted by Pintsized

Same reason the Allagan droids are still active all over the place to this day!

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This argument is invalid to me. Those droid have a reason, the blacksmith no.

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Originally Posted by Arutan

This argument is invalid to me. Those droid have a reason, the blacksmith no.

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If Rowena is sending Gerolt to Azys Lla to make weapons, I could see her posting employees at the start of dungeons to provide repairs.

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Originally Posted by BrianJ

Durability exists as a gold sink.

The only thing i want is a way to show my average gear durability on screen/UI. Like next to the clock. Is that so much to ask? It's going to help forgetful people like me not have to leave a party and make them wait forever or even abandon(especially when you have to leave as a tank/healer) and induce me a 30m penalty. Nobody goes away healthier.

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You only have to press a single button to see the durability of all current equipment. For me it is [C].
I also think that the dots in the mini inventory display give hint about the durability (full repaired, not full repaired and broken)

+Pintsized:
The only changes should be the possibility to repair other players gear (the repairer get automated payed for the used dark matter).

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Originally Posted by Vexander

If Rowena is sending Gerolt to Azys Lla to make weapons, I could see her posting employees at the start of dungeons to provide repairs.

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Rowena would position them outside of the entrance, because they would want a higher payment if they have to wait inside. And the repair will cost tomes.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

If Rowena is sending Gerolt to Azys Lla to make weapons, I could see her posting employees at the start of dungeons to provide repairs.

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It isn't a dangerous place as long as you stay in the airport.

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Originally Posted by Arutan

It isn't a dangerous place as long as you stay in the airport.

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And Dungeons aren't a dangerous place as long as you stay at the entrance. Just inside the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Rowena would position them outside of the entrance, because they would want a higher payment if they have to wait inside. And the repair will cost tomes.

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25-50 tomes per piece.

I would like to allow players to repair other players gear in the same fashion that melding works

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Originally Posted by Lexia

25-50 tomes per piece.

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Not under 300
It is Rowena we speak about ^^

http://i.imgur.com/8LXJUIt.png
Click Me.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

I would like to allow players to repair other players gear in the same fashion that melding works

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1.0 had this and it was great.