How to Dragoon per Second: A DPS Paradigm

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I'd like to see actual parse differences between high crit build vs a high det build. If you had all the pieces a 700+ det set is definitely possible. Seems to me the only way to really settle the crit vs det debate.

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Once I have enough options to manage it, I intend to do exactly that. Gonna run some pug A1 or A3 normal with two different sets - one high crit, one high det. The issue is that to make the high det set, you NEED gordian legs+chest, which I'm nowhere close to getting, haha.

Would you guys dot 2 mobs with phlebotomize during the core of the rotation?

HT > Phleb (on an add) > CT combo ( on main boss) > 4th > Phleb ( on main boss) > FT combo (on add) > 4th etc, like in a1s?

I know HT wears off before FT combo is completely finished (on full thrust), but I was curious if this was a gain or loss overall.

Or should u just stick to the rotation, even with adds, and only move Phleb once or so, like dervy did in the vid that Thendiel posted.

I think in general if you can have a dot ticking on something else while you work the rotation it would be a dps increase. A1S in particular tho, I don't phleb the add, I'd have to try and see how it affected things to give a good response. I normally grab the add with 4th, then ht-idc boss, depending on lasers I'll 4th the boss again or if I have to dodge laser then just 4th the add as I'm moving into position. I don't know if I could finish IDC on the boss if I threw a phleb on the add before, and it wouldn't pay off to use it after all that when it's half dead already. I'd like to actually grab the add with phleb but the rotation, I guess I could live with it unbuffed. You have at least one GCD but any longer than that it seems like they'll start running for the healers

Hey folks! Now that the BIS sets have been independently confirmed by several people, I'm releasing a data dump of some of the results that I've collected using an advanced simulation. This includes party bonus and HQ Drac Pot usage and the theoretical foundation is all Dervy's work, who deserves credit for making this possible in the first place and being so willing to assist on theoretical questions I had. The actual rotation used is the same as Dervy's standard rotation, except for a slightly more optimized (in my opinion) opener.

A4S Gear BIS: http://pastebin.com/EJsmyBc6
A3S Gear BIS: http://pastebin.com/wJxZstSA
A2S Gear BIS: http://pastebin.com/HQwB3Nc2

There are some interesting results in there, such as the second strongest A4S BIS set having an i190 ring (!) in its set.

Sets with skill speed from 463 (the lowest possible limit to still have Blood of the Dragon) to 626 were calculated. The A4S sets with higher skill speeds than 626 (from 627 to 669) are included here for completion's sake, but the top set with a higher skill speed would only place at #13 in the lower skill speed list. http://pastebin.com/WHZpu46s

For beginning raiders, a good progression of sets that doesn't waste items by only buying things that will be kept to the final BIS set would be this:
Edit: These sets mean "having cleared A2S, A3S, etc.." and is generally pretty greedy, so it only works if you're allowed to roll on all gobcoats. Additionally, it's not a good optimization for trying to clear A3S, but if you're comfortable with that then it saves you effort once you beat A3S.

http://pastebin.com/PxAx51VT

Notes: The simulator does not factor in party buffs such as Selene's Fey Wind; it is possible that the true BIS would change in that case, but that is meta-dependent and you may not always have a SCH in your party. This simulator calculates BIS with food in mind.

P.S. The final set is Aiurily's set.

I'm not sure how you calculated those sets, but you missed (at least) one of the three we have up for consideration as the best in slot set.
This guy: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/RM4U

And it's interesting that #1 on that lines up with the actual highest potential stat weight set according to the weights in this thread.

Also does your simulation take into account the fact that the low skill speed in Aiurily's set might cause it to be difficult (or potentially impossible) to maintain 3 gsk per minute in practice?

Not to doubt the simulation, I'm just really confused as to how that number 2 set is even in contention being as low as it is on Strength and secondaries. According to the weights here, that set falls a full 7 points behind the number 1. It's really confusing me how this is being calculated.


Also, can you list off your slightly more optimized opener? I was looking before to see if I could find any way to optimize it further and couldn't find one. Curious what you came out with and how you found it.

Sure, I can explain.

1. That set was discarded in one of the heuristics used to determine whether it's worth calculating a set or not. If we didn't discard any sets, there would be about 25 million sets to calculate, which is too many. Even at 1000 sets/sec, you're still looking at 7 hours of calculations.

The exact heuristic used for this particular set is the following:

A previously calculated set had these stats.

--Number 7
DPS: 1543.25874803661
Player Equipment:
Gordian Trident
Gordian Sallet of Maiming
Dragonlancer's Plackart
Gordian Gauntlets of Maiming
Fabled Belt of Maiming
Dragonlancer's Cuissots
Gordian Sabatons of Maiming
Fabled Necklace of Slaying
Gordian Earrings of Slaying
Gordian Wristband of Slaying
Fabled Ring of Slaying
Gordian Ring of Slaying
Baked Pipira Pira
Player stats:
Str: 1111
Acc: 639
Crt: 869
Det: 415
Sks: 637

If we compare the proposed set, we see that it has strictly less than or equal STR and WD and falls into a worse SKS category (650 skill speed is less dps than 637 skill speed due to DoT clipping, all else equal.)

That means the only reason to consider the proposed set instead of this already calculated set is the CRT and DET, since all other stats are equal or worse. We see that we gain 31 CRT, at the cost of 58 DET. DET's weight is approximately 0.14. In order for 31 CRT to be better than 58 DET, CRT would have to be weighed around 0.24. Unfortunately, the actual weight of CRT is around 0.12-0.17 with the range of ~300 to ~900 CRT. In order for CRT to weigh 0.24, you would probably have to have around 1500 CRT already. Anyway, the actual weight doesn't even come close to the weight it would need to be better for any practical purpose so we can immediately tell it's a worse set and not calculate it.

Actually calculating it proves this result: 1538.313 dps, which is 5 dps lower than the previously calculated set, so the heuristic was correct.

2. While weights are considered in the heuristics to filter out sets that will never come close to competing, the actual calculation of DPS does not use weights and derives directly from the formulas. So the fact that it matches up with the weights is a happy coincidence.

3. Yes. The lower limit of skill speed is 463 in the simulation to ensure the broadest possible range of sets are calculated. However, you have to be a machine to do that. But it is certainly possible. To prove this, equip a 490 skill speed set and try it. I just did; you can get 3 gsk/min every time. 579 skill speed would be very comfortable.

4. #2 is in contention because the simulation doesn't use weights to calculate DPS. It calculates actual DPS, whereas weights are only an approximation (especially when talking about CRT and SKS).

5.
--OPENER
HT
BL
B4B
ID
BOTD
IR (this is flipped for the opener only - in the rotation, always use IR before BOTD. This flip is in order to get IR to apply to the second CT.)
DIS
STRPOT
CT
LS
PS
4TH
JMP
PH
SSD
ID
DFD
DIS
LEG
GK
CT
4TH

Follow the opener with HT-TTT4, etc. This opener does about 700 more damage than the standard opener with A4S stats. I found it because I originally developed a rotation simulator.

Hope that's helpful!

I'm gonna have to try that out tonight in A3, now, lol. I'll see how it ends up working out for me and report here. Last night I was around 1400 going into phase transition relatively consistently. It looks cool, at least, and will make me feel special, so...

I'd still reverse DFD and SSD, though, for my own personal preference. I like having DFD one GCD sooner for whatever reason. FEELS better to me.

If you try it in A3S, after your 3rd GK, you will have 3 GCD's left. Instead of applying HT, just do TTT. Then when he becomes vulnerable again, you can open with HT-IDC4-PH. This way you get higher potency right before he invulns, the Disembowel and CT will still be active the entire time through the invuln and into your second opener.

It took me a while to get it down, and I didn't notice a significant dps increase (though I was closer to 1430-1440 average instead of 1400-1410 going to first phase transition), however the phase 2 rotation is like WAYYY smoother, wow. (Can't get caps there since I hit HT on invuln so I have it for the subsequent HT when he returns which gives me like 0s downtime to take the cap)

The only issue I ran into was that at Sluice I was on rear for Chaos Thrust instead of flank where I had been before tonight, so I had to poke at my WAR to tell her to move after one time I got double sluiced. Much more consistently at 1300-1350 going into add phase, too, due primarily to the rotation being hecka smooth (though I can't be sure how much of that can be attributed to my comfort level with the fight getting better). I'm dropping a CT on one hand just as health bars change into 4th>phleb>BL+B4B>basically full opener but with a FT combo to finish before flopping to other hand for CT and to chase with Leg+Jump+Geir during the last combo before phase. It works pretty well. The smooth rotation in p2 makes me like it a lot. The fact I hit 1500 on first transition a few times doesn't hurt, either.

I'm still thoroughly confused what Hak does to manage 1450-1475 by end of hands, though.

Fire off 3 gks before hand. Disembowel right as the change happens. Ct then phle, refresh ht at 6 seconds left, continue normally using botd before fullthurst, fire 1 gk during next b4b, elusive back on double hands ct on primary hand, set up ct on second hand, fire 1 gk, equal happens, dps which ever, fire off 1 more gk pop 3rd botd, fire another when it's up, pop 3rd b4b, fire 1 more gk, dps some more, fire off another gk phase ends. I don't use phle after equal.

Hey Jack,

It's a better PPS increase to drop HT for the end of Phase 1 and do a TTT instead if I'm doing the math right. Additionally, the double CT opener is only about 750 damage stronger at A4S levels of gear, which means you should be seeing maybe 10 more dps on average by the time he goes invuln for the first time.

For Sluice, you can hit the Disembowel on the flank to bait it away, then right after disembowel move to the rear and you should be able to get there in time.

Actually, I had only suggested doing this for the very first opener of the fight because the idea was that even though you're clipping CT by a massive amount all the buffs you have (Battle Litany, Internal Release, Blood for Blood, STR POT) would make extending the duration of a super-buffed CT a PPS increase over TTT anyway despite the huge clipping. It may not be a potency increase to use it after that; I have to double check the math on that as I have never tested that scenario.

Since we're talking A3S, what do you guys do during Add phase? I feel like I take too long to move from add to add depending on the spawn RNG.
The biggest problem for our team is wave 3 as we always seem to get overwhelmed by the small adds. We've seen wave 4 a few times but there were always at least one small add reaching the edge. I don't know if I should just go from target to target (like placing CT>Ph in one and moving on, leaving it for our ranged to finish it off) or just try to burst them asap with multiple FT combos.

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Originally Posted by ReliaWylder

Hey Jack

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That's what I was doing, I end with 4th > TTT > [ HT on invuln ] to re-up it as he transitions, then HT when the phase starts back up again to re-up it for a full combo following. And the issue is that right after that Disembowel (that used to be a Vorpal Thrust), I hit Jump. I can't re-position and then Jump between Dis>CT without clipping my GCD.


In add phase, I've been basically leading it off with a CT combo on the first Piston, Leg Sweep it when it gets there and BotD to start my blood cycles. I hold my GSK all through that phase, just re-upping blood until I need a GSK to finish a burn on a tiny add; it has range, 200 potency, costs 0 TP, and lets you snipe one from a good distance if it's about to hit the water all without interrupting the flow of your combos.

Aside from that, I tend to FT combo the gears, CT combo the pistons, weaving Jump/PS Jump on cooldown and using DFD to close gaps in dire circumstances, especially when multiple adds are grouped up for it. I generally try to bite off more than I can chew, since last night our dps through wipes in add phase was generally 1100/1000/900/900 me/mnk/smn/mch. That said, my group hasn't cleared add phase yet, so any strats I have aren't necessarily ideal.

I never use CT or Phle in add phase.

That's what I've been doing too, might follow Hak's lead tonight and try without. Our issue has been getting all the small adds down before the last wave of pistons spawn. We've only got it once and subsequently died to cascade. So that was fun xD

Typically the monk and I handle Pistons while MCH and SMN handle small ones. Then we run around and help with gears in between piston waves. Not sure if this is ideal or not, any suggestions for changing that up or keep it as is?

In add phase, I pretty much just spam TTT4, refreshing HT as necessary. Don't use Spineshatter to DPS, use it in case a mob is far away from you as a transportation skill.

I mostly don't use cooldowns if they won't be back up for the last phase. AFAICT only pre-tornado DPS, the last four adds, and final phase DPS will end the fight sooner.

I do use a lot of Chaos Thrust combos but this is a relic from progression and the ranged are probably more than capable of finishing things off cleanly now.

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

I mostly don't use cooldowns if they won't be back up for the last phase. AFAICT only pre-tornado DPS, the last four adds, and final phase DPS will end the fight sooner.

I do use a lot of Chaos Thrust combos but this is a relic from progression and the ranged are probably more than capable of finishing things off cleanly now.

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Last 4 adds of tornado phase don't do anything for clear time. Source: sitting there every week for an annoying amount of time waiting for Pepsiman to come back to the dismay of all of our DPS/combos/stacks. Pepsiman comes back when he wants to come back.

It's true what you say, don't use CDs that won't otherwise be back in time for Pepsiman in that phase (this applies to the party for the most part) unless you're looking to jack up your numbers. If you're failing it's because the Heavies/stuns aren't flowing properly or people die/are slacking.

In that case, we're just bad \o/

Even if the last four adds did anything you wouldn't want to use significant CDs because of all the downtime while the guy prepares to go targetable (silly bosses, that's how players beat them!).

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

That's what I've been doing too, might follow Hak's lead tonight and try without. Our issue has been getting all the small adds down before the last wave of pistons spawn. We've only got it once and subsequently died to cascade. So that was fun xD

Typically the monk and I handle Pistons while MCH and SMN handle small ones. Then we run around and help with gears in between piston waves. Not sure if this is ideal or not, any suggestions for changing that up or keep it as is?

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They just dont live long enough in my group, so no point for me to use any dots.

U guys realize those bis have way too much acc you only need 620 acc for a4s..

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/ROG0 this would be ideal bis for a4s

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Originally Posted by alpha2415

U guys realize those bis have way too much acc you only need 620 acc for a4s..

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stacking in front for fracture
jagd dolls
quarantine dolls sometime

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Originally Posted by ReliaWylder

For beginning raiders, a good progression of sets that doesn't waste items by only buying things that will be kept to the final BIS set would be this:

http://pastebin.com/PxAx51VT

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This is a little late, but I'm just looking at this now. Shouldn't a set designed to progress on a fight NOT use items obtained from that fight? It's not very useful to have a set designed for A3S that requires a bare minimum of 3 clears of it before you can even use it. x:

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Originally Posted by JackFross

This is a little late, but I'm just looking at this now. Shouldn't a set designed to progress on a fight NOT use items obtained from that fight? It's not very useful to have a set designed for A3S that requires a bare minimum of 3 clears of it before you can even use it. x:

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I took it to mean "this is the best set I can come up with if you've cleared this floor."

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Originally Posted by Bloodborn8

I took it to mean "this is the best set I can come up with if you've cleared this floor."

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This is the best set to farm this floor.

No way, it's 700 accuracy. It is what it says it is: a plan to not buy non-BiS pieces. This is a practice I would discourage beginning raiders from adopting. If you already have the 3 months of esoterics gear, and miraculous luck with drops, okay fine. Realistically, you should optimize around what gear you have or will get soon in order to take down the fight you're on.

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

No way, it's 700 accuracy. It is what it says it is: a plan to not buy non-BiS pieces. This is a practice I would discourage beginning raiders from adopting. If you already have the 3 months of esoterics gear, and miraculous luck with drops, okay fine. Realistically, you should optimize around what gear you have or will get soon in order to take down the fight you're on.

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Ah, yeah, I agree with you. I had so many people giving me shit for buying the Eso wrist before the chest (which I just bought this week) because any sooner and it would have given me an immense surplus of accuracy at the cost of a reasonably large sum of skill speed (and points of crit) since I had the 190 chest. Even now, buying it forced me to "downgrade" from eso wrist to alex wrist just to maintain a skill speed that I'm comfortable with, until next week, when I can round out my set with the head.

But yeah, you shouldn't build toward "best in slot" just because it's "best in slot" when you're months away from even having a chance at getting certain pieces (twines, mostly) from it.

I was just confused as to why those sets contained pieces dropped on the floors they were designed for. I guess it's like "This is what you should aim for for the next floor" which seems silly to me. And the whole "avoid buying non-bis pieces" jargon would be believable if the A3S set didn't have (upgraded) eso wrist+neck, of which only the neck survives to BiS.

What kinda group is gonna feed you four coats when you only need 3 for your bis and you have 7 other people in the group who all need at least 1 each as well?

Yeah, my terminology was bad - it meant "set with all pieces available from this floor". Additionally, I wrote that with people who only pug in mind; 4 gobcoats isn't really a problem when you don't have a group to share with and you're just rolling on everything anyway. If you're looking to optimize for a particular floor or are in a static then it's not really a good set to follow (unless you're comfortable with running un-optimized for A3S and have free reign to roll on anything). :P

I edited that post to reflect that.

BiS only takes account the hardest content.
BiS there though, don't mean BiS in other content.
One of the reason for that is the different accuracy requirement.

So yes, you "should" adjust gear for every different content.
But most people won't do that, they'll just go with BiS set which will work on any lower content. Though not as efficient.

In a dilemma. Next week I'll have 4 pages from AS3 so I'm debating to use on a twine to upgrade a piece or wait 2 more weeks to buy the Gordian helm if it doesn't drop. My eso chest is already 210 along with gloves, waist, legs and boots all being Gordian. My helm is eso not upgraded. I remember earlier in this thread someone stated the 200 eso pants were still better than the 210 Gordian ones. If I get the twine should I just upgrade the eso pants, use on helm or maybe swap out for eso boots? What would be the best use for it in your opinion?

Regardless what you upgrade, in my opinion you should swap out your Gordian legs+belt for the Esoterics pieces, even if they're still i200. It essentially trades 100 Accuracy for an equivalent amount of Crit, while maintaining all your other stats and giving a pretty marginal loss, comparatively, strength-wise. This would be made even better if you could nab a Coat for the belt and/or Twine for the pants.

If the Gordian Helm is part of the bis set you're aiming for, imo I'd wait for week 6 and just buy it. Twines will eventually be in surplus for your group. Pages will take much longer to reach that point.


Swapping 210 gordian belt+pants to esoterics:

------------ Str / Det / Crit / SkS / Acc
Before-: 1078 / 360 / 725 / 628 / 784
After--: 1066 / 335 / 842 / 658 / 648

(with Pipira Pira)

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Originally Posted by hagare

BiS only takes account the hardest content.
BiS there though, don't mean BiS in other content.
One of the reason for that is the different accuracy requirement.

So yes, you "should" adjust gear for every different content.
But most people won't do that, they'll just go with BiS set which will work on any lower content. Though not as efficient.

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This mindset baffles me. People who run fight-inappropriate BiS sets in this way either don't understand how accuracy and secondary stats work in this game, or don't care. I inwardly groan every time I hear someone talk or ask about "DRG BiS" without reference to a specific fight, as if there could be some single monolithic gear set that was ideal for every encounter.

Using a "BiS" set with more accuracy than you need for the fight you're running is the equivalent of buying an expensive pair of heavy-duty waterproof hiking boots, and then wearing them for a leisurely run on a sunny day.

Considering the difference between a Ravana EX BiS and an A4 BiS is about 8.5 DPS, I'm not gonna be terribly concerned if someone only maintains one or two gearsets and plans around A4 accuracy. If they're, say, stacking skill speed over strength or something, then maximum overrustle.

In some cases the "BiS" set may have more accuracy than you need and still be the highest dps due to limitations in itemization. But yes, the Ravana EX BIS using only i210 items (572 acc or above) is probably this:

DPS: 1558.62926532614
Player Equipment:
Gordian Trident
Dragonlancer's Mesail
Dragonlancer's Plackart
Gordian Gauntlets of Maiming
Fabled Belt of Maiming
Dragonlancer's Cuissots
Dragonlancer's Schynbalds
Fabled Necklace of Slaying
Gordian Earrings of Slaying
Gordian Wristband of Slaying
Fabled Ring of Slaying
Gordian Ring of Slaying
Baked Pipira Pira
Player stats:
Str: 1111
Acc: 597
Crt: 828
Det: 510
Sks: 620

and the A4 BIS is only about 1.5 dps lower (according to my sim) and yet has 656 acc. It's not a big deal to plan everything around A4, unless you're having trouble completing a certain floor that you should then optimize for.

You can lower accuracy closer to 572 acc for the Ravana EX set, but you'd actually lose dps, not gain it, as switching the pieces around to get lower accuracy also results in lower offensive secondary stats.

Are the eso boots better than the Gordian ones in general? I still need to lose some SS since I have way too much but next week I may just use my twine on the pants. Being currently on AS4, what is the potential highest dps set I should be aiming for?

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Originally Posted by LiquidSwordz

Are the eso boots better than the Gordian ones in general? I still need to lose some SS since I have way too much but next week I may just use my twine on the pants. Being currently on AS4, what is the potential highest dps set I should be aiming for?

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This is a set Dervy had slapped together for me a few pages back when I asked for a set of that sort. I'm not sure how it stacks up with Relia's sim, but it's the set I'm currently aiming to build (minus Gobtwines) by the time I down A3S.

Hey guys. I'm having some difficulty with AS3 - I've changed the rotation to sub-in spineshatter dive much earlier in order for it to be up for the first knock back attack in the hand phase.

1. The gap closer allows me to get to where I need to be to trade debuffs with healers.
2. It allows me to continue my rotation and stay out of the way of those that are trading debuffs.

Is this dumb? I just can't justify standing around waiting for everyone to be in their proper places. If I run in, I may end up mistrading someone's debuff.

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Originally Posted by Condottiero

Hey guys. I'm having some difficulty with AS3 - I've changed the rotation to sub-in spineshatter dive much earlier in order for it to be up for the first knock back attack in the hand phase.

1. The gap closer allows me to get to where I need to be to trade debuffs with healers.
2. It allows me to continue my rotation and stay out of the way of those that are trading debuffs.

Is this dumb? I just can't justify standing around waiting for everyone to be in their proper places. If I run in, I may end up mistrading someone's debuff.

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Uptime is never dumb, unless it somehow interferes with the mechanics of a fight in a detrimental way. What you're doing sounds perfect.

SSD shouldn't have to be used "much earlier," though, honestly. I typically just swap Spineshatter Dive with Dragonfire Dive in my A3S opener, so that SSD goes out between Phlebotomize and True Thrust. This way, SSD comes off cooldown again almost immediately before the first Wash Away goes out. There isn't really a DPS loss associated with this--it's not even a "worse" opener in any meaningful sense--so I say, go for it. You can also cancel the Wash Away knockback with a carefully-timed Jump attack, if you're comfortable with that.

The only reason I might recommend not using Spineshatter Dive at this point would be if you have too many members of your group gap-closing at that same moment (Aetherial Manipulation, Shoulder Tackle, etc.), and people end up walking all over each other and accidentally swapping Digititis debuffs.

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

Considering the difference between a Ravana EX BiS and an A4 BiS is about 8.5 DPS, I'm not gonna be terribly concerned if someone only maintains one or two gearsets and plans around A4 accuracy. If they're, say, stacking skill speed over strength or something, then maximum overrustle.

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Fair enough. I'd still run a separate gear set for Ravana EX, personally, because DPS is DPS. I guess I'm really venting about the end-of-2.X era, when people would run T13 BiS in fights like Titan EX, literally stacking HUNDREDS more points of accuracy than they had to. Because we're so early in the 3.0 cycle, this isn't really an issue, but in another two or three patches, the differences between gear sets will become much more pronounced.