RIP Ninja

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Isn't it funny, then, that they're addressing the jump lock, and making DRG more mobile in Heavensward, hmm?

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Jump locks get reduced because they tend to kill you, not because of positionals.

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

Jump locks get reduced because they tend to kill you, not because of positionals.

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That's nice, I sure hope they'll address NIN's Execution lock as well, then.

already stopped playing ninja(lacks dps imo) and these changes dont make me want to pick it back up ill play drk or one of the new ones that havent been nerfed yet or just continue with blm much easier to stand back and burn stuff

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Originally Posted by Riepah

That's nice, I sure hope they'll address NIN's Execution lock as well, then.

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What execution lock?

Assassinate, it locks you in place. But different from Jump, it allows you to still do actions.

LOL at lack of NIN dps btw.

How often can you really use assassinate really though? Only toward the emd of the fight while jump is actually used for the whole fight?

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Originally Posted by reillyblair

already stopped playing ninja(lacks dps imo)

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You won the lolcoment of the year.

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Originally Posted by Neri

What execution lock?

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Talking about Assassinate, I guess

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Originally Posted by Neri

How often can you really use assassinate really though? Only toward the emd of the fight while jump is actually used for the whole fight?

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Still an execution lock, and any fight with adds has multiple scenarios for its uses.

I don't know lol. I never have a problem with Assassinate at all since you can only use it at during the end of the fight.

I'm not saying its an issue, I'm just telling you there is animation lock tagged on it.

Yes I know. It just that I don't know why Riepah mentioned it and compared it to drg's jump, that's all.

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Originally Posted by Neri

Yes I know. It just that I don't know why Riepah mentioned it and compared it to drg's jump, that's all.

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B/c gotta find something to go with the message of RIP NIN lol

manage mudras while doing positional rotation and avoiding boss mechanics....sounds like fun :)

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

manage mudras while doing positional rotation and avoiding boss mechanics....sounds like fun :)

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You are trying to make it sound far more complicated than it actually will be.

ok so after a day of thinking about it... and yes I was with you guys about positionals with the madra lag. They didn't show all the moves.. they probably left 1 or two of the flashier OMG moves from each job to not spoil it for us. I know alot of people choose ninja b/c of no positionals but if they are not that many (equal or less than dragoon)- i can deal with it. Remember they made these changes with lv. 60 end game content in mind. I'm guessing they did testing with ninja- lets face it with the speed skill change coming- two things are clear. 1.) Our DOTs are getting hit harder 2.) we are going to be hella fast!. Since we can stand in one spot and we will be the fastest class - we would be too op/ super easy class. Only way to slow us down is to either add some positionals or add cast times- I'm happy with the former. Lets wait and see. If its as bad as you guys say it is- then i'm raging with you. The JAP forums are raging also, so you aren't alone.

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Originally Posted by Neri

I never have a problem with Assassinate at all since you can only use it at during the end of the fight.

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Leveling nin I actually got killed by it once. Second boss in Dzaemel, I hit assassinate and then he immediately after targeted me with firewater. And the guy next to me. Got hit by two while movement locked and fell over dead straight off. Best part? Guy next to me had limit broke and was also movement locked, so we both died. Obviously, given assassinate + LB the boss was pretty low so the tank and healer just finished off the last 3% or whatever of his health. Was still pretty amusing, though.

Never actually died from getting locked in with a jump, though. Have taken hits, but not actually died.

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Originally Posted by Krylo

Leveling nin I actually got killed by it once. Second boss in Dzaemel, I hit assassinate and then he immediately after targeted me with firewater. And the guy next to me. Got hit by two while movement locked and fell over dead straight off. Best part? Guy next to me had limit broke and was also movement locked, so we both died. Obviously, given assassinate + LB the boss was pretty low so the tank and healer just finished off the last 3% or whatever of his health. Was still pretty amusing, though.

Never actually died from getting locked in with a jump, though. Have taken hits, but not actually died.

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It's gotten me killed a few times, notably if I run Titan due to the high uptime of a lot of "You will die if hit from this attack," abilities. Throw in that Ninja isn't my main, and it's a bit easier to understand why it's a problem for me. It's possible to plan around it, but the actual lock just feels arbitrary instead of a fun or balance-based mechanic, much like limit breaks do.

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Originally Posted by AzraelX

we would be too op/ super easy class.

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Now this won't be a popular opinion, but let's say the Ninja would be super op because it was easy but just as good a DPS class as any other DPS out there without this change to positionals.

Why is this a problem? No, seriously, why is this a problem? As long as the class doesn't break PVE or PVP balance, what is so intrinsically wrong with any class being easier than another?

Let's look at the 2 tank classes, the Paladin and Warrior. Most people prefer the Paladin. It's much safer, easier, and simpler. To call it an "overpowered" class isn't exactly wrong, though not entirely right either. And yet, despite being the popular, "easy" class, a lot of people actually still play the Warrior, and in many respects it can still be "required" or, at least, recommended to clear content. Warriors are much harder to play well than a paladin, but they can do the same job almost exactly the same as a paladin, with the major noteworthy mechanic being it's hard to keep alive in some situations and they don't have a panic button to say the least (Holmgang is nowhere near as good as Hallowed Ground).

And yet, despite the Warrior being 'inferior' to the Paladin in many respects, ignoring its advantage of raw self-healing and substantially higher MT damage, it is still used and as viable as the much easier Paladin.

It's kind of like the concept oft a so-called noob-tube when compared to other options in a well-balanced FPS. It's an easy option, it's fun in and of itself, but it's not the best. Part of designing a multiplayer game and designing it well is to not make everything equally as skill-intensive regardless of the actual effectiveness of any weapon involved. In PVP games, usually you want the low-skill items to be worse overall, but in a PVE game you can afford to make them all equally as viable.

I don't feel that the Ninja should necessarily be this class due to what the name Ninja implies, but this is closer to where it falls presently within the game itself.

For people who don't want the "Easier" class, there are other options. And those other options can be better or worse depending on context. Maybe some of the power should come from support instead of raw damage, maybe it should come from a lack of it. Ultimately, at the end of the day, having a class be easier than another isn't bad game design. On the contrary, it's actually good, as it allows every player regardless of personal skill level play the game at more or less similar levels. The idea is to just make sure that they're not vastly superior than other options in the process. It's only then that the real problem shows up.

I see you're point (^above) but you are right. no problem having an easier class to play but the problem is that there is already the "easier" class to play for each role. Dragoon is the easier melee already. Paladin is the easier tank already. WHT mage is the easier healer. BLK Mage is the easier magic range dps. BARD is and probably will stil be the easier physical range dps. It appears that the MCH will be more complicated.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

manage mudras while doing positional rotation and avoiding boss mechanics....sounds like fun :)

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For non-main NIN,yes.but If you're main NIN,you should do that much and i'm sure a lot of skilled NIN won't have a problem.

I think this reddit post details some of the concerns people have with NIN: http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...lls_in/crl4hz6

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Originally Posted by Houston009

Lololololol. :rolleyes:

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They aren't and if you are getting out parsed by a NIN with equal gear then you need to look at your rotation and how you play as MNK.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I think this reddit post details some of the concerns people have with NIN: http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...lls_in/crl4hz6

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Thank you for posting this. I read everything, and I fully agree with what the poster said.

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Originally Posted by juniglee

Thank you for posting this. I read everything, and I fully agree with what the poster said.

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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...lI1VGvrnl0/pub
There is a list of what we know about the classes and everything else in heavensward nothing new for ninja in there just thought i'd post it just in case more info comes and it gets updated

I may just go back to monk haven't decided yet.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

They aren't and if you are getting out parsed by a NIN with equal gear then you need to look at your rotation and how you play as MNK.

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They are, and I could say the same thing, just vice versa.

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...lI1VGvrnl0/pub
There is a list of what we know about the classes and everything else in heavensward nothing new for ninja in there just thought i'd post it just in case more info comes and it gets updated

I may just go back to monk haven't decided yet.

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Thank you for this too!

I myself *may* make a switch to Dragoon, depending on how the changes pan out to be (since my current static already has a Monk).

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I think this reddit post details some of the concerns people have with NIN: http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...lls_in/crl4hz6

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amazing post, sadly, i'm worried that everything he did post will happend, we are too close of the release for them say suddenly that they will add no positional....because it's the main change of the jobs and we will look like the jobs evolving the less (what is already the case)

i feel they didn't know what add to the jobs... and did listen to most of the other community instead to listen to us. (i have told it countless time) most of the change outside refresh huton (and it not that sure) only bring one thing to the ninja... a drastic change in the wrong sense.

i feel like the op in reddit, a tons of ninja will drop of the jobs, but maybe it's what want SE... god i wish they did allows us to test this change before decide it was good enough because the jobs is out for more of 6 month. i feel that SE was quite rude to the ninja community with this statement, actually i feel it's almost insulting to us that did decide to switch to that jobs. like we don't deserve the same attention that the other jobs. it's sad, because i remember yoshida saying that the mmorpg is not different than a service, and soo far, they take every ninja for idiot!

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Originally Posted by Houston009

They are, and I could say the same thing, just vice versa.

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They are not, maybe to you they are, but to any good MNK, they aren't.

Only time NIN and now DRG will out parse a MNK is when MNK is constantly dropping GL stacks. With the changes coming in HW that will alleviate that weakness, MNK will shine even better in the hands of a good player (and fail even more in the hands of a bad one XD ).

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

They are not, maybe to you they are, but to any good MNK, they aren't.

Only time NIN and now DRG will out parse a MNK is when MNK is constantly dropping GL stacks. With the changes coming in HW that will alleviate that weakness, MNK will shine even better in the hands of a good player (and fail even more in the hands of a bad one XD ).

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You also play on an European (mostly European players) server in which they suffer the brunt of mudra lag. You're either playing with ninjas with bad ping, or just very bad.

"but to any good MNK", sounds like pride.

I know it's hard for you accept the facts, but its true. I'm sorry I was the one who had to tell you.

is not really about who have the better dps between drg, mnk and nin, but more about what will happend to the ninja with the add of the positional and more important the fact that the jobs didn't get any new mechanic...

simply add new skill will not make the class more interesting, if the new skill don't bring new and fresh experience for the player. but that the point, we ninja did receive the less attention of the whole jobs present. indeed some jobs did need some change. i will never say the inverse, but the goal of an expasion, it's to expand the limit of the jobs. when i see the list of the mechanic and gameplay announced for the jobs of the game... and arrive to the ninja.... it look miserable.
everyjob outside ninja, did get a new mechanic that did bring new experience for the player... but ninja will still be played like before.... but for avoid this, instead to develop more the unique gameplay of the ninja, they did decide to put positional into it. without even thinking at the trouble it can lead.... the op of the reddit post is right, it will recquire a lot of skill for be able to pull a good dps with the positional into the skill of the ninja. we can argue for hours why it's bad.... i have give 3 reason valid to be against it.

that don't change the fact, that SE did simply ignore the trouble of the ninja and instead to work on it and bring new experience for the jobs.... they did decide to leave us with a system more broken.... what will happend to the ninja? only a few player will be able to play it correctly... and you know what? SE will need to patch the jobs for make it viable in high level content. and instead to avoid a futur trouble and respect them ninja community.... they did insult us... they take us for idiot, they did ignore us.... i'm sorry my word are hard, but it's the reality.

we did deserve more than what they decide to offer us... some piece of gameplay outdated and not adapted at what player was looking for, when they did decide to join the ninja. because they was unable to develop new mechanic nor they was able to ignore the crying of jealousy of the other community.

i'm not for the stuff like riot and petition, i found them pointless. but i feel soo much angry about what they did... all the expansion look marvelous, but this...."thing" did almost break all my excitement i had until now. because my jobs was *smirks* treated like the 5th wheel of the car. i'm sure i'm not the only one feeling this angry and displease and betrayed by SE action. it's not at the same point of the warrior, because the warrior was an error of the design... here they did take our jobs and did decide to ignore him design for change it into something broken and more important this change will bring nothing new. i'm sorry but i feel insulted by them way to handle our jobs.

ps: i doubt any petition, plea, riot stuff will change nothing, but if Yoshida and the community team really want to calm us, they need to come here and not give us craps as explanation about why they did decide to change the ninja for no reason and give us nothing new! it's time for them to step up and face us, the ninja community and talk to us. because soo far, our concern are more than legitimate and if like yoshida have said, he do consider this as a service.... we deserve some respect as player that did choose a jobs for it original design. it's time to listen to the community playing the jobs instead to the other community!

They're definitely being extremely lazy with how they're attempting to keep Ninja up to date with the other melee. That's exactly why I'm upset with the expansion and while I look forward to playing the actual content, I don't look forward to playing it as a Ninja at all. To that end, we're going to see a lot more Monks at endgame and a lot less Ninjas.

Looks like I'll be putting away my knives... this' depressing.

The niche I loved playing NIN for is going away, what a disappointing way to handle making the Job a little more challenging.

Looks like I'll have less competition for NIN gear. Thanks for giving up, guys! >_>

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Originally Posted by Yuri_Hyuga

Looks like I'll be putting away my knives... this' depressing.

The niche I loved playing NIN for is going away, what a disappointing way to handle making the Job a little more challenging.

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Sorry :(

I'll still be enjoying NIN :D

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Sorry :(

I'll still be enjoying NIN :D

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Happy for you, enjoy it! I just can't any longer.

I left MNK for lack of positionals with NIN, loved it.

Now I see no point, may as well just be a MNK again.

Won't have to deal with Mudra Lag.

One reason I'm against positionals for the ninja, is because I'm sick and disabled and with the ninja I can play a melee job that I like - always been fond of rogue/thief/burglar/assassin class in other games and MMOs, whatever name it gets - is fun and with not much positional required.

Those who like to have positional on their skills already have the monk job to play, dragoon has some positional skills as well so they get that too, and if ninja get positional skills as well, that would leave no job, no alternative, to play for those who don't want to - or cannot or have big issues with - play a job with positional skills. And I've seen in this thread and other threads that there are people who have issues playing a melee job with lots of positional skills like the monk so they chose the ninja to play, others have chosen the job for the pleasure to not have to deal with positional skills for once, while they have to do so for the other jobs they play.

I'm very wary about those unneeded changes coming in 3.0, those changes are homogenizing the job into the other two, especially the monk. The ninja won't be a ninja anymore. I'm really not happy about this.

I also think that the ninja should not get flashy skills, a ninja is not supposed to get noticed, it's supposed to be stealthy and stab targets quickly and deadly and the targets see it too late to react.

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Originally Posted by Yuri_Hyuga

Happy for you, enjoy it! I just can't any longer.

I left MNK for lack of positionals with NIN, loved it.

Now I see no point, may as well just be a MNK again.

Won't have to deal with Mudra Lag.

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Maybe it's a hidden message from SE: "Hey NIN guys, there's this cool class we'd like you to take a look at, it's called Dragoon!" XD

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Originally Posted by Korbash

I also think that the ninja should not get flashy skills, a ninja is not supposed to get noticed, it's supposed to be stealthy and stab targets quickly and deadly and the targets see it too late to react.

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-Looks at this. Turns attention to IV and watches as Edge uses different AoE Ninjutsu that are for sure flashy. Looks at VII with Yuffie also having some pretty flashy attacks.- Yeah, flashy really isn't ninja's thing...

idk about you, but I'm hella jazzed about the hate transference skill ninja is getting. Tanks love that shit.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

idk about you, but I'm hella jazzed about the hate transference skill ninja is getting. Tanks love that shit.

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exept good tank don't need it.... find me one time where it was needed previously and was missing?
it's a situational tool only usefull for bad tank or undergear one.

other get new buff, new usefull skill and we did get a situational skill and.... positional... seriously?

i'm the only one disappointed by the skill of the ninja announced?
even the refresh of huton is a skill that normally will have more utility if we had get more ninjutsu to use.... but that not the case! it's like they did decide randomly what to add.... without even think at the synergy or any mechanic, it was just, we must give to the ninja new stuff.

indeed the skill that refresh huton will allows us to grabe more dps, but do it will change our gameplay? depending of the extension of the duration is not even sure to be that much usefull, depending of how we must use this skill, it's possible fit it into our cycle we be more troubling than simply recast huton...

Kage-watari, the skill of aggros is too situational, we will barely use it... for me this skill don't deserve to be added with expansion, but with patch !

the only skill that are not underwhelming is the new 3 stage attack... all the rest are well... a joke?

even the skill or passive that must increase our weaponskill.... a skill of ninja increasing our weapon and not our ninjutsu... do i need to say more....

all this stuff is avoiding ninjutsu when we are ninja and it's our main tool... seriously? how is possible to miss that much what a job is about.