Fix Sumnmoner

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Originally Posted by Sakurakiss123

3: garuda over shadows ifirit as far as usablity
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please do not spread lies garuda gives you more sustain but ifrit gives you alot more damage

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The problem with the Summoner is its a DoT class with little resemblance to the Final Fantasy Summoner. Scholar would've been better off being the DoT class since their focus is on healing instead of DPS.
The Summoner should be direct damage use Space-Time Magic and have the Pet as the focal point.

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So wait now they should act like time mages, the additional spells you keep mentioning keep changing, which is it? Just leave their spells as they are, mostly, and fix what issues they do have.

Since day 1 people have argued over what the "flavor" of SMN is supposed to be. Someone's always pushing for bigger summons or whatnot.

I agree with Eloah...changing flavor isn't going to happen.

What does need to happen is imo mechanics changes to SMN, not even numbers buffs.

Just small things like...mana issues, AoE burst, and egi usefulness.

need a quote for but yoshi has already stated in heavensward summoners (from my understanding) will benifit from spell speed, and it will affect when and how often dots will tick, that alone is a huge benifit

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Originally Posted by AreeyaJaidee

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The hell are you talking about? I'm asking Akiza if he wants SMN to hvae great AoE or great ST damage. I said don't bring up any comparisons because, don't bring up any comparisons.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Since day 1 people have argued over what the "flavor" of SMN is supposed to be. Someone's always pushing for bigger summons or whatnot.

I agree with Eloah...changing flavor isn't going to happen.

What does need to happen is imo mechanics changes to SMN, not even numbers buffs.

Just small things like...mana issues, AoE burst, and egi usefulness.

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I find your comment here interesting, because it proposes (what I personally see as) two conflicting statements. Depending on how they're perceived, I think they are where a lot of disagreements in how to "fix" summoner stem from.

"changing flavor isn't going to happen."
"What does need to happen is imo mechanics changes[...] like [...] egi usefulness."

Just my personal opinion, but I think giving the Egi utility (and c'mon, if we're going to have five or more in the future, they all need to have a purpose) would greatly change the flavor of summoner compared to how it plays now.

Please note this isn't to start any arguments, just commenting on where I think a lot of the dissention between the people who do and don't want "change" comes from.

I tend to think of my Egi as simply a dot with a health bar (which in some cases, is a pretty annoying drawback).

What I meant about giving more egi usefulness isn't really because I like one more than another, but I want them to be what shores up SMN weaknesses. So for example mechanically, if we have trouble with burst aoe, then one of the egis should help with that.

I suppose what I mean is that flavor isn't a reason enough alone to change things - it needs to have a mechanical impact or change the class in some way other than just "I like this playstyle better", or "I think this fits with my vision of summoner more".

I want carbuncle to be back >.<

SE plz give him a purpose to exist as anything but a sub-garuda

The problem is SE combined two classes that are difficult to balance a DoT class and a Pet class. DoT Classes always end up being mechanically broken or the developers implement them poorly while Dedicated Pet Classes end up being OP the draw back being it has a high skill cap.

The way to fix the Summoner is to make the Pets the focal point of the job while the DoTs become secondary just have Summoning Magic takeover. Give the Egis unique roles in the party.
Ifrit Egi- Single Target Bursts and increase physical damage
Titan Egi-Multi-Target Taking and party wide defense buffs
Garuda Egi-AoE Bursts and increase party wide spell speed
Leviathan Egi- High Sustained Single target DPS and Stuns
Ramuh Egi- AoE DoT Pet and Interuppts
Shiva Egi-Single target Tank inflicts heavy and slow

There isn't a single class where the secondary abilities take over ... we need to stop worrying about the whole "class/job" difference, 1, because its confusing and 2, because likely it will change in heavensward what with the new jobs being jobs only, etc.

We cannot just "ignore dots" because that is the core of the ACN class, we'd have to completely gut all of our abilities and also our passives...this is something that simply can't happen while we're still tied to ACN and SCH. I think what we're all hoping is that the classes separate, but even then I think all that will happen is SCH gets their heals earlier and SMN gets a few skill tweaks.

The principal issue with summoner is target swap, I think that make a spell to erase Bio, Bio II and Miasma from your current target and then apply the erased effects with his duration in another target could be useful

For more flavor: It could be fun if they remove fester and give at every summon an useful ability that costs aetherflow charges, it could be some like a DOT for Garuda, a direct attack for Ifrit and a defensive ability that affects the SMN for Titan.
An ability that let you swap summons without wipe 1/3 of your mana could be nice too

The Summoner is hybrid class by nature but the focal point is the Summons. The problem is melee classes are pretty close to each other in terms of the application of DPS. Monk has the high sustained single target dps, Ninja is like Monk with no positional requirements and Dragoon is blunt damage. The only real difference between the melee is their abilities and animations each of them have high sustained single target dps. The Black Mage outclasses Summoner in every area of DPS to the point where the Summoner pointless. Melee DPS competes with each other but the Casters don't making the Black Mage the default caster. Give the Summoner more reliable Single Target Bursts and AoE Bursts by having Ifrit and Garuda fill that role forcing the Casters to compete with one another.

Is it me or does Ifrit Egi look bigger in the new benchmark?

https://youtu.be/ihj4e0QM3SY?t=6m13s

Your right the video looks like they reverted to the original 2.0 size they had planned to release them at:
http://i.imgur.com/XnKu9TL.jpg

Though videos can be deceiving, however they did say "big changes to summoners skills and how they play are coming."

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Is it me or does Ifrit Egi look bigger in the new benchmark?

https://youtu.be/ihj4e0QM3SY?t=6m13s

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I feel they've always managed to find good angles to make summoners "look" impressive. Like here, for instance.

http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/im...r_summoner.jpg

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Originally Posted by TripPsyc

Your right the video looks like they reverted to the original 2.0 size they had planned to release them at:
http://i.imgur.com/XnKu9TL.jpg

Though videos can be deceiving, however they did say "big changes to summoners skills and how they play are coming."

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I'm sorry TripPsyc, but there was no "original 2.0 size." There was, however, a photoshopped image a user on the beta forums created to give the developers an idea of how big we wanted the Egi to be. But people still complained "No, we don't want giant Egis that blot out the sky."

Here's the real image and job reveal video for comparison.

http://www.ff-xv.net/images/media/51...rcanist_01.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbF3jq04c80

A little more looking you are correct about the photo itself thank you.
However the devs did in fact say "Egis were originally larger but their size was later reduced."

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Originally Posted by TripPsyc

A little more looking you are correct about the photo itself thank you.
However the devs did in fact say "Egis were originally larger but their size was later reduced."

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While that is true, we will never know how much "larger" the other design was. Which I think is a pity.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Is it me or does Ifrit Egi look bigger in the new benchmark?

https://youtu.be/ihj4e0QM3SY?t=6m13s

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I've watched the video over and over and it does look like it. The garuda earlier didn't see much bigger than normal, but in the fight at the end Ifrit looks quite large. Around 6:48 he looks to be almost as large as the female Roegadyn summoner, floating quite close to the ground no less. I've never been one for the larger egi side of the discussion, I was okay with it. But seeing it like this (even if it is odd angles that make it look larger) just sold me on wanting bigger ones.

Ultimately I want to see the bench mark myself and of course, we'll have to wait until 3.0 to really know for sure.

Well here is a HD video of the benchmark. He really does look as wide as the Roe WAR.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Well here is a HD video of the benchmark. He really does look as wide as the Roe WAR.

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Ifrit does indeed look larger in this new benchmark. I guess one way to find out would be to download the benchmark, take a few screen grabs and then load up ARR and compare them to the current size of Ifrit.

You can tell he's larger simply by the fact that his spike/tail thing is practically dragging on the floor... it's usually well clear. I'm wondering if this is a general adjustment to their size or if a new 50+ trait in Heavensward might increase it.

Ifrit Egi looks like the size of a Female Roegaydn when he's floating on the grown. SE did say big changes are coming to Summoner. Existing jobs will get enough abilities to cause rotations and Summoner and Black Mage will see Big changes with their new actions.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...Qmc/edit?pli=1

Well according to translated Q&A from Nico Summoner has been heavily reworked for 3.0... something something Tri-Disaster. What that means? No idea lol.

I think you guys are getting what you've asked for... well at least a change, maybe not to the extent that some want though.

Nico Q&A

Summoner has been heavily reworked. Something something tri-disaster.

EDIT: looks like I wasn't fast enough :) well whatever

Maybe tri disaster will finally be something worth putting on my bars? I think I use blizz2 instead lol.

Yay we finally getting our changes!!

Wonder if they are separating sch from smn

Maybe they just made Ifrit bigger for the trailer? It would be trolling but you never know... On the other parts of the trailer Garuda and Ifrit seems to have the same size, but it is far so I'm not sure.

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Originally Posted by Hagen

Maybe they just made Ifrit bigger for the trailer? It would be trolling but you never know... On the other parts of the trailer Garuda and Ifrit seems to have the same size, but it is far so I'm not sure.

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Possible but unlikely. Considering that last section of the trailer was clearly intended to show off some of the new skills for each job, having Ifrit resized is obviously going to lead players to draw some conclusions and get excited.

I would like to point out that it was only the SMN in AF2 gear that had the enlarged egi. It's entirely possible that SMNs will get a trait at 60 that increases the size of their pets (or hell even a buff that does it). All of the smaller egis were seen with presumably sub-60 SMNs as they were all wearing a mixture of WoD and Ironworks gear.

I was really disappointed by SMN when I started playing, but it grew on me and became my main class. Its DoT-focused gameplay is super fun and I would'nt change it for anything else.

The only tweaks I would like to see would be:

- Reduced cooldown on Enkindle
- As said earlier, make it so that Enkindle can NOT be ignored. Its cooldown is super long, and I die a little inside when I see the ability go on cooldown but nothing happens at all (saw this at least 3 times in T9 the other day).
- Make Tri-Disaster deal AOE damage (say, 50-60 potency) instead of being a Bind, or...
- Give us a Ruin III, which would be an AOE. Or make Ruin instant-cast like Ruin II, and make Ruin II the AOE, instead of having Blind as an added effect.
- Replace the effect of Ifrit's Radiant Shield to target a party member instead (this would be super useful when dealing with a lot of adds or trash mobs).
- Make Egi abilities scale with Spell Speed so the stat does not suck anymore.
- Maybe make Contagion a job ability, and give something else to Garuda so we can use Ifrit and his new Radiant Shield, and be FREE to do so.


What I don't like about the job is that our DoTs are aspected to Poison and Disease. If Bio, Bio II and Miasma were replaced by Windburn, Firebite and Sludge, that would be great. Bane would be renamed Diffusion, and Fester would become Dissonance or something like that. Or Tri-Disaster, that would make sense. Tri-Disaster would be called something else.

I think the above paragraph itself would make SMN feel and look a lot more Summoner-y.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Maybe tri disaster will finally be something worth putting on my bars? I think I use blizz2 instead lol.

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In the trailer it looks like Tri-disaster got changes to an AoE Bursts spell

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Originally Posted by Akiza

In the trailer it looks like Tri-disaster got changes to an AoE Bursts spell

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Tri-Disaster could be changed to damned near anything and be more useful than what it is now (PvE-wise). I'm not putting too much stock in the benchmark trailer since the battle sequence was obviously choreographed and edited for visual effect, not to showcase the flow and effect of actual gameplay.

As sick and tired as I am of SMN complaint threads, I am 100% in favor of useless abilities for all classes becoming less so. I hope that its PvP utility doesn't get destroyed in the process, though.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I hope that its PvP utility doesn't get destroyed in the process, though.

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There is absolutely no reason to even make the limited 5 job skills currently have any pvp focused utility at all. Yoshi and the team did what any mmo that has both PvE and PvP should do and made a PvP specific skill set. Practically all PvP utility skills that have little value in PvE should be thrown in there.

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Originally Posted by Jranmaia

There is absolutely no reason to even make the limited 5 job skills currently have any pvp focused utility at all. Yoshi and the team did what any mmo that has both PvE and PvP should do and made a PvP specific skill set. Practically all PvP utility skills that have little value in PvE should be thrown in there.

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I actually wish some of the PvP abilities were in PvE. Phantom Dart ftw.

Don't worry summoners. Just try to be patient til heavensward come along. You will get 5% mana cost reduction on tri blast while some strange buff is thrown into the cogs that further buffs scholar and leaves summoners in a state of wtf.

Well my 2cents... I too have to agree I'm a bit taken aback by how the Summoner Job has been implemented in this iteration of Final Fantasy. As many have already stated, the size of the egi, the "DoT" mechanics... although an interesting take, on how the Devs wanted the Summoner job to be used in the game, to I guess fit... it does take away from the actual historical significance that Summoner has been depicted in previously... I mean, look at Yuna from Final Fantasy X, a summoner who "relied entirely" on the capabilities of her summons who where awesome both in damage and support....akin, to (FFXI)...

I've seen some mention that "we" want a FFXI summoner, and perhaps we do...why?, because it does genuinely represent the Summoner job and how it has been implemented in the past...

why change a formula with so much history and lore behind it... and why (spoiler for those that don't know)... have Belial, as "big and looming and threatening" during the summoner job quests... Seriously, if SE can create Belial to be so big, why not implement the egi-system, so that they don't take a backseat to the actual Summoner...

The Egi is the job... that's my understanding of Summoner... not the other way around... this entire system is broken...for the depiction in which it has been reflected.

SE thought making the Summoner a pet focuse job will be to hard to play for casual players but it turned out to be the other way around. Look at Ninja SE thought players would have a hard time squeezing out every bit of DPS with Mudras put players mastered it easily and quickly.

Summoner is suppose to be easier with the DoT focus but the majority of Summoner's are horrible because DoT classes are harder to master at high level. With the type of fast pace game this is Summoner would've been better off being a pet focus job since it fits with the overall theme of the game.

I think it's funny how this thread just died, lol. It's sorta a good thing, but it's just funny.

People are waiting for Heavensward changes so people are waiting until either giving it a thumbs up or complain on the forum

The low damage potency of Tridisaster is a bit mystifying when you compare it to Blizzard II's. The fact that it's a ranged longer duration bind with a duration around that of baned DOT's makes it useful to me in open world.