Why not abolish the Class system entirely in favor of Jobs? [@ Devs]

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

1 big reason

by keeping classes, each "class" will end up with 2 possible roles in a party
that role which is created by not using a job, and another created by using the job which lets them specialize

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This would be the one I'd go with.

Think of Seiken Densetsu 3 -- each character had two career paths they could follow: Light and Dark.

Basically, as it stands, FFXIV has potential to bring A LOT of jobs in ontop of the current classes. This will help in a lot of ways, because it means a White Mage and a Black Mage can access each others spells for the sake of leveling up, but then switch to their specialized job for boosts their specific abilities (assuming BLM and WHM are both CON).

As it stands, I'd like to see:

Gladiator - Paladin / Warrior
Marauder - Barbarian / Dark Knight
Conjurer - White Mage / Black Mage
Pugilist - Monk / Berserker
Thaumaturge - Red Mage / Oracle (or Time Mage)
Lancer - Dragoon / Beastmaster (somehow, I see Beastmasters as making more sense as spear users)
Archer - Ranger / Gunner

Something I forgot to mention in my last post. In FFXI the most important factor in being able to do multiple things as one class was gear not Subs. more importantly being able to change gear on the fly. the proper gear set is what turned Ninja from a tank to a DD to a nuker to an enfeebler, ect. without the ability to be able to change gear FFXI's classes most likely would of been pretty bland and used only for their main thing.

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Originally Posted by ViolentDjango

As it stands, I'd like to see:

Gladiator - Paladin / Warrior
Marauder - Barbarian / Dark Knight
Conjurer - White Mage / Black Mage
Pugilist - Monk / Berserker
Thaumaturge - Red Mage / Oracle (or Time Mage)
Lancer - Dragoon / Beastmaster (somehow, I see Beastmasters as making more sense as spear users)
Archer - Ranger / Gunner

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Don't forget the 2 missing classes
Musketeer would be Gunner /ok
Arcanist - Geomancer

I hope Sheepherd get Beastmaster ^^

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Originally Posted by Felis

Don't forget the 2 missing classes
Musketeer would be Gunner /ok
Arcanist - Geomancer

I hope Sheepherd get Beastmaster ^^

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Shepherd appears to be a DoL class according to an npc in LL =) But that does make me wonder... will gathering classes end up also unlocking Jobs?

Just my theory, I think jobs may go like this...

GLA - Paladin / Dark Knight (Would make sense, since they are similar yet polar opposites.)

MRD - Warrior / Berserker (Make Warrior a viable tank, and have Berserker go full DPS.)

CON - White Mage / Black Mage (We all know this is coming.)

THM - This one is a mystery to me. It has Red Mage's qualities, but Red Mage's primary weapon is a sword. Dunno we will see.

LNC - Dragoon / ? (I know Dragoon is a given, but I can't think of what could also be viable, I would think Samurai, but I believe they rather use Samurai as a class in the future, maybe.)

ARC - Ranger / Bard (Ranger seems obvious, but if people's rumors of Archer getting Bard is true, can only wonder how it will work.)

-Classes we know are coming in.

Musketeer - ? / ? (Can't say to be sure, but bringing back Corsair would be a cool idea.)

Arcanist - Geomancer / ? (Geomancer sounds highly likely, since Yoshida has already compared Arcanist to a Geomancer.)

-Highly likely classes.

Summoner - (In the storyline, Ifrit mentions that people were able to summon primals at will one time, this definitely gives Summoner an advantage to come in and fit with the story perfectly.)

Two-handed sword class - This could possibly be the Dark Knight, since they mentioned that two-handed swords will be in the game sometime in the future.

Sorry for bump, I don't really have time to go over every post either so forgive me if I'm repeating some stuff.

My point: Does the class system restrict future jobs?

As we all know, jobs are based on classes, with around 5 new abilities/spells, AF and stat adjustments.

A new job branching from base class would therefore be similar, but some different spells/abilities, AF and some stat adjustments.

This worries me as jobs based on class will not be unique enough and class will always be holding back what can be done with jobs.

For example: Paladin << Gladiator >> Dark Knight

Unless Dark Knight was a tank, I can't see how this would work as Gladiator does not really have the right tools to be effective DD.

The class system was a nice gimmick but was not introduced the right way in order to be useful in the direction this game is heading. I suppose it still has some potential for solo play.

I doubt anybody would miss or even uses classes any more (except for a few fights). I personally would rather have interesting jobs as they have more flavour.

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Originally Posted by Yoji

Sorry for bump, I don't really have time to go over every post either so forgive me if I'm repeating some stuff.

My point: Does the class system restrict future jobs?

As we all know, jobs are based on classes, with around 5 new abilities/spells, AF and stat adjustments.

A new job branching from base class would therefore be similar, but some different spells/abilities, AF and some stat adjustments.

This worries me as jobs based on class will not be unique enough and class will always be holding back what can be done with jobs.

For example: Paladin << Gladiator >> Dark Knight

Unless Dark Knight was a tank, I can't see how this would work as Gladiator does not really have the right tools to be effective DD.

The class system was a nice gimmick but was not introduced the right way in order to be useful in the direction this game is heading. I suppose it still has some potential for solo play.

I doubt anybody would miss or even uses classes any more (except for a few fights). I personally would rather have interesting jobs as they have more flavour.

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I'd rather have classes focus more on solo play. Give the player more versatility. You ever level that job that just does
not seem take on the mobs solo? In ffxi it was the monk or the whm, even classes that could depended heavily on what mob they were fighting.That's where classes come in.

No more reasons to keep Classes.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I'd rather have classes focus more on solo play. Give the player more versatility. You ever level that job that just does
not seem take on the mobs solo? In ffxi it was the monk or the whm, even classes that could depended heavily on what mob they were fighting.That's where classes come in.

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The issue is that classes are a base of jobs, fine if classes are separate entities, but jobs are limited by class. And this game is supposed to be about group battles. I really don't know how SAM or NIN could be added unless a new class was, and then they'd be similar. It's just totally not necessary. I just don't want to see jobs ruined for the sake of fitting the class.

Yes do this and release ARR in 2020. It's to late for that now, it would require changing the whole game.

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Originally Posted by Akira_Tenshi

Yes do this and release ARR in 2020. It's to late for that now, it would require changing the whole game.

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I disagree, jobs could be separated from classes. It's not like classes get any love anyway and doesn't seem like they will any time soon.

It's pointless to have something useless in game, especially when it prevents positive changes. They could merge current classes with the jobs and remove the ability for cross ability selection.

Is there really that much difference between Conjurer and White Mage?

I'd just like to know what benefit linking Thief to say Gladiator (dagger user) would be ability/stat-wise. Dark Knight would be more likely Marauder, but Dark Knight uses great sword or scythe, not great axe.

Class are not pointless. I have to really wander at anyone who makes such a claim. In small groups, or solo, Classes are by far the more effective choice, and such situations benefit from the players all being able to draw from a wider skill set. Jobs are great, but really only effective in a full party situation.

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Originally Posted by AlexNiculaie

Class are not pointless. I have to really wander at anyone who makes such a claim. In small groups, or solo, Classes are by far the more effective choice, and such situations benefit from the players all being able to draw from a wider skill set. Jobs are great, but really only effective in a full party situation.

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Don't get me wrong, in theory classes are a great idea which I was excited about. To be able to branch off into speciality roles is nice too. It's just the specialities aren't unique enough, and I can't see where it's going if they add a second job to each class. It's not like the base class which influences the job is going to completely change. Unless jobs will have a lot more to them in ARR. I haven't heard of any changes being made to classes so it's as if they're staying pretty much the same as they are now. For each Job that doesn't fit a class (e.g. Red Mage) they can't just keep on adding new classes with dumb weapons (books), or force a job into a role it shouldn't be. Thief-tank? ...Archer>Bard? (OK this didn't work out that bad)

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Originally Posted by Yoji

The issue is that classes are a base of jobs, fine if classes are separate entities, but jobs are limited by class. And this game is supposed to be about group battles. I really don't know how SAM or NIN could be added unless a new class was, and then they'd be similar. It's just totally not necessary. I just don't want to see jobs ruined for the sake of fitting the class.

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Considering the number skills you use from class while playing a job,, I'd say the opposite is true, you still depend on the class skills in group battles even while as a job.. And there are plenty of reasons why I would want to fight solo. Quests, farming materials, exploration, being able to say "I solo'd that NM!" And jobs required two classes to be familiar with. One combination makes sam, the other nin.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Considering the number skills you use from class while playing a job,, I'd say the opposite is true, you still depend on the class skills in group battles even while as a job.. And there are plenty of reasons why I would want to fight solo. Quests, farming materials, exploration, being able to say "I solo'd that NM!" And jobs required two classes to be familiar with. One combination makes sam, the other nin.

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Maybe you misunderstand my point, a second job would have about 80-90% of the abilities/spells of the first job, with few differences. Please tell me which class you would assign the following jobs to, keeping in mind they would inherit most of the stuff the first job already has: Dark Knight, Thief, Red Mage, Beastmaster, Blue Mage, Ninja, Samurai, Time Mage.

Would they not need to be similar to their class? Would the job have to be changed (in a boring way) to suit?

In XI there were what? 20? Jobs, with their own individuality/unique identity.

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Originally Posted by Yoji

Maybe you misunderstand my point, a second job would have about 80-90% of the abilities/spells of the first job, with few differences. Please tell me which class you would assign the following jobs to, keeping in mind they would inherit most of the stuff the first job already has: Dark Knight, Thief, Red Mage, Beastmaster, Blue Mage, Ninja, Samurai, Time Mage.

Would they not need to be similar to their class? Would the job have to be changed (in a boring way) to suit?

In XI there were what? 20? Jobs, with their own individuality/unique identity.

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Classes can also be added to provide the basis if becoming other jobs. As another alternative, classes like gladiator can change by the availability of two handed weapons, or for red mage, a main gauche(making different offhand weapons restricted to the jobs, but available to the class. For example, class "hatamoto" class with the ability to wield one handed or two hand katana, maybe even a shield. The samurai is restricted to two handed katana, the ninja to one handed katana in one or both hands, with either no shield or "tools" available in the secondary or ammo slot if you want to change them on the go.


Boring? You don't want to be called gladiator or pugilist? You want to immediately be considered of the elite warriors of Uldah? Keep in mind there is also lore, guilds, quests, connected to this. You're cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Does anyone think that 2.0 will try and make the classes more generic? We don't know for sure that the abilities each class has will be staying the same...do we? If that was the case, that would solve the problem that Yoji is talking about. I don't think adding jobs to 1.0 was in the original design of the game, so you run into the problem of the classes already being too specialized.

If the classes were turned more generic, that would really open up the possibilities of specializing with jobs. And then you could have a class branch into several different jobs...which is a really cool idea I think.

Get rid of classes in my opinion. #my two cents

this awkward 'class' system is the reason why there ain't any more types of weapons

they have to made up a new funny class names for each weapon and add new 'guilds' for it

wield a great axe? you're a pirate!
a sword? you're a pit fighter!
hand-to-hand? you're a thug!
staff? you're an environmentalist!

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Originally Posted by Eard

this awkward 'class' system is the reason why there ain't any more types of weapons

they have to made up a new funny class names for each weapon and add new 'guilds' for it

wield a great axe? you're a pirate!
a sword? you're a pit fighter!
hand-to-hand? you're a thug!
staff? you're an environmentalist!

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Well if you want new weapons to be swung the same and treated like props than by all means. Personally I think its a bit daft to "stab" someone with something that is called a "chesnut wand" but looks like a wooden spoon, or a curved sword, or an axe without a spike, these are not stabbing weapons.

Its not like there weren't weapon types in xi that were restricted to one class only. The katanas come to mind

The class <> job system in my opinion adds flavor to the game, it gives it that little bit extra like cherry on the cake. It would be simple to have your cookie cutter job with pre set skills, abilities, and so on. Like in XI were 5 people would play 1 job the exact same way, as you could add no variation.. With the 2 class make 1 job deal you still have the per job skills, but past that each person can add there own little touch to the job, determined by how they play..

That aside, the jobs and classes can be played quite differently.. and offer different things to the table.. in some fights a class can easily out perform it's job, and the same is true on the revers side of the coin... I am now sure why OP would want to remove this aspect.... even if you are not happy with it you can over look it and focus on something else.

One does not make a better game, by changing things for no solid reason.

*face desks* Ugh, this again? Who revived this old turd from the bowels of the forums? At this point we're beyond any changes like removing classes. Doing so would delay ARR even further than what we've experienced now. Besides... I can think of a number of reasons why keeping most classes is more important, one being that they offer a much more diverse play style than jobs. Jobs are what they're counted as, advanced versions of those classes. For small party setups a nuker/healer hybrid may be needed, that's where for example a thaumaturge could come in, more specifically, a conjurer.

A monk would be more of a liability in a small group than a pugilist who can still dish out roughly the same damage while having a means to cure themselves beyond Second Wind. They're doing heavy changes to all the classes and jobs in ARR so nobody actually knows how they'll play, but I do believe the team mentioned making classes much more desirable for smaller parties than they are now. Though, hopefully they might extend bard's song repertoire a bit. Add in a HP regen song and give it to archer or bard. Archer in my opinion is much better for straight DPS but it's outclassed by other jobs making it only suitable for solo play and even then there's probably better options.

They're supposed to be a more versatile class less evolved than bard, but they only have one song (If you can count it that.) available to them. Giving them a HP regen song or the MP regen song and giving bard the HP regen song instead would at least make the class more useful in some situations. Could be a different song too, as long as it's one that could be beneficial to a small party setup.

Getting rid of classes is easy, you just call them jobs and call jobs advanced jobs.

Lets see if they fix the usefulness of disciplines before we abolish the system.

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Originally Posted by Yoji

The issue is that classes are a base of jobs, fine if classes are separate entities, but jobs are limited by class. And this game is supposed to be about group battles. I really don't know how SAM or NIN could be added unless a new class was, and then they'd be similar. It's just totally not necessary. I just don't want to see jobs ruined for the sake of fitting the class.

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SAM is all about brute force and damage dealing. NIN is like THF, but they buffed themselves (Utsusemi, Tonko) and debuffed (elemental with status downs) enemies.

I think the contributing problem in the class to job system, is that it stifles the job system's ability to expand itself in the long run.

To give some examples of this, I must first explain the obvious. How the system currently is. There has been no updates on how Square will be handling the Class/Job thing. But based on what we had before, assuming they're keeping to the same system, the following will most likely be the case.

Keeping the current system means one of two things. We're going to have one new class introduced with everyone one job:

Arcanist > Summoner
Scout > Theif

Or

We're going to have multiple jobs to a single class:

Gladiator > Paladin / Dark Knight
Archer > Bard / Ranger

And so on.

The problem with the first way, is that it makes the classes redundant. You are merely gaining an additional 5 abilities that can be drawn from any class (a total of 10) as opposed to a job, which can chose 5 abilities from pre-selected classes. However, you gain 5 "unique abilities" particular to your job. (Still giving you a total of 10). Any job can solo, and all jobs have a way; native or not, to heal themselves. Paladins can cure themselves. Warriors have an ability to restore HP through a native ability and second wind. Monk, Bard, and Dragoon are the same case. They're preselected classes allow them to heal themselves. Some jobs can solo more efficiently than others, but the fact remains if classes were removed, a job can still solo. They just have to play differently to stay alive (as they should).

In the second route, it makes jobs pointless. Why would you want to be a Dark Knight, if you're going to do the same weaponskills a Gladiator does aside from 5 unique abilities the dark knight and paladin gets, it sorta makes for boring gameplay. Jobs that share a base class will all do the same thing aside from 5 abilities. Where is the fun and uniqueness in that ? Jobs sharing a route class also ruin the balance of the job. A Dark Knight is supposed to be a damage dealer, yet all the abilities and traits learned on Gladiaor favor tanking abilities and traits. How can these abilities help a Dark Knight ? A class well known to perform damage but sacrifices deffence ? Does that mean Square has to create talent trees now so your gladiator can be more tailored for a Dark Knight ? Or must we all endure a broken Dark Knight because its native class, the Gladiator, only offers tank traits ? Dark Knights don't need provoke, or Rampart, or Sentinel. They need they're own native abilities. And no matter how you slice it, no class can tailor and new job tacked on to it. So square can only go the first route. Which is redundant anyway.

I too believe the class system should be abolished, and have only the jobs. Perhaps just give them a little more flexibility, or just introduce the "Onion Knight" job. Which essentially acts like a class. You can pick and chose whatever abilities you need to a degree, and that can be your solo class. Just food for thought.

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Originally Posted by Naraku_Diabolos

SAM is all about brute force and damage dealing. NIN is like THF, but they buffed themselves (Utsusemi, Tonko) and debuffed (elemental with status downs) enemies.

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Thats FFXI, it doesn't have to be that way ya know.

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Originally Posted by Thebard

Thats FFXI, it doesn't have to be that way ya know.

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Nor do classes have to abolished, there are plenty of game that start you out as one class and evolve it to a advanced class.

The current classes are too closely related to their respective jobs, all except Archer>Bard which wasn't the best fit so Bard lost it's identity sort of, I'd like it if Archer was converted to a Ranger. As someone already said the only way it would probably work is 1 class 1 job. But then it's an extra class each time for the sake of introducing a job... Gladiator wouldn't be a good base for a Dark Knight. It just makes things harder to do, jobs are more important to this game and what FF is about.

I have to say it does seem an odd time to debate this topic when we haven't seen the changes that have been made for ARR yet.

I'm not sure where I stand on this anymore. I created a thread just like this before. I was against the stupid fragmentation of the game's classes, but I changed my mind recently when I tried to PL somebody in Copperbell Mines. Warrior is the defacto PL, but I decided to try it on Thaumaturge and I owned the entire room of Dapper Cadavers in 4 casts and ended with full HP and near full mana, where it would take WAR a couple minutes and some struggling. So I realized the class system is of use to me.

I'm sure that will all change in 2.0 though.

There is no reason to have a class system imo. Hell, I'm against the armory change-class-on-the-fly system also, but what do you do.

I'm not for it or against. Classes should play differently than jobs.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

I'm not for it or against. Classes should play differently than jobs.

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This. Jobs should actually give stat boosts, while classes are more open to a variety of abilities from different classes. When i found out that there weren't any stat boosts, to be honest, I thought the job system was a bit, eh.. The only thing I see that actually helps is some access to job specific armor and stuff, and some better abilities. It gets to the point where nobody thinks any of the classes are useful anymore, besides switching to THM from time to time just to be able to Raise.

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Originally Posted by darkm0d

There is no reason to have a class system imo. Hell, I'm against the armory change-class-on-the-fly system also, but what do you do.

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Wait, does that mean you're for locking our characters in to a single class/job for the entire game?

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Originally Posted by LlenCoram

Wait, does that mean you're for locking our characters in to a single class/job for the entire game?

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More like, just not being able to change jobs on the fly. You'd have to visit a certain NPC or maybe your Inn Room or House to be able to switch jobs, like in FFXI...

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Originally Posted by Nuru

More like, just not being able to change jobs on the fly. You'd have to visit a certain NPC or maybe your Inn Room or House to be able to switch jobs, like in FFXI...

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Ah, that makes more sense. I can't play games that lock me in to single playstyles anymore. Drives me batty. I'm still for the armoury system though.

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Originally Posted by LlenCoram

Ah, that makes more sense. I can't play games that lock me in to single playstyles anymore. Drives me batty. I'm still for the armoury system though.

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This is one of the main reasons why I'll never play Tera. :P I love being able to change class and level a different profession, and on top of that, be able to use skills and feel like I am also powering up my other classes at the same time. FFXIV has one this quite well, and I hope it isn't removed, I would like it to be built upon more.

SE gonna add a brand new class for a brand new game ..deal with it :P if they wanted to change it they would have started with arcanist/summoner so for DRK stop saying it will come from gladiator or marauder bcuz it wont!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Warlock

SE gonna add a brand new class for a brand new game ..deal with it :P if they wanted to change it they would have started with arcanist/summoner so for DRK stop saying it will come from gladiator or marauder bcuz it wont!!!!!

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Well, I'll give you that it may not be another job branching from Gladiator, but Yoshi definitely used GLA > DRK as an example in one of the interviews, which leads people to believe that if DRK were to be implemented, that this is how it would be implemented.