Marriage Quest finally on the horizon! Yay!

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Originally Posted by ReplicaX

Since 2.0 Beta Phase 1 there have been 100s of threads regarding Same Sex Marriage ingame. Past practice of everyone being locked and hidden due to overzealous opinions from both sides becoming uncivil and ill mannered.





Being uncivil, using an untactful approach, and breaking forum etiquette is no excuse no matter how just or right a cause is.



This comment is just as discriminating as many of its opposition.

Also see Shioban's post above.

Repeating again, I am neutral on the subject and it is a sensitive one here.

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You're taking things out of context. Again. I'm not saying they have a right to break the forum rules. I am saying discuss the issue not their behavior. This is like watching political mud slinging. You are attacking the speakers and not their points. You don't like how they act? Fine, report it. Don't turn the thread into a fight against their behavior when that isn't what this topic is about.

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Originally Posted by Shioban

/snip

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"As for same-sex marriage, this is an extremely controversial topic that has been under discussion in the MMO world for the past few years. First we would like to start out with opposite-sex marriage, and then consider the feedback from our players in order to make a careful decision.I can’t say whether or not it will be possible at this point in time. I’d like to keep dialog open with our players as we deliberate the matter." - Naoki Yoshida

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this is an extremely controversial topic that has been under discussion in the MMO world for the past few years.

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controversial topic that has been under discussion in the MMO world

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Except that it hasn't...
I've stated it once and I'll state it again, if you make it a big deal then it will BE a big deal. SE has made this a big deal.

Other MMO's have done it, and we've seen no bad press, no names slung through the dirt, no outrage, there was nothing.

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Originally Posted by Shioban

-snippidy snip snip-

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Yes Shio, I've read all the posts regarding the introduction of the marriage system. In the end, this game is a work of fiction revolving around the suspension of reality it takes place in, so the mere logic behind taking offense to it is sort of absurd. And honestly I'm growing weary of reading of people claiming that Japan is going to have some giant negative response to gay marriage in a video game. I spent 2 years in Japan and if you ever walked into the myriads of novelty stores they had giant sections labeled for Yaoi/Yuri content. While Gay culture isn't exactly as embraced as it is here in the US, from what I was told during my stay - it certainly it isn't denigrated to the point where an obscure mechanic featuring marriage between two males would stir up some giant controversy, because most people have the common sense to not take a game based on Fantasy that seriously. It'd be like DC not wanting to publish a comic with a gay soldier in it because the Westboro church might have a problem.

The only ones making the issue notable are Square themselves.

Though that isn't even my gripe, because it's subjective.

It's the fact that this "Marriage" system is suppose to be a mechanic designed to bring an element of fun to the game, but the fact that they can't implement it without upsetting someone says that the best course of action is to, well -- not implement it. If player feedback is anything to go by, it is clear that there are a large group of players who are strongly offended by it - and if Yoshi was truly listening to the players he should know better.

Oh look! A video game that offers fun instead of moral debate over bedroom/lifestyle preferences! I love fun. Anyone remember fun? Lets all log in and have some fun instead of being angry at each other. Cause, that's why we're all here for, right? Fun?

Besides, you know what would spice up the marriage system?

If there was an RNG factor to it that George R.R. Martin would appear in the backrow.... Be careful about the wine. :D

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Originally Posted by Tule

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What started as a simple discussion thread based on new information regarding the "marriage system" (none of which detailed gender specific unions) as any thread regarding the subject has again derailed into a two sided discussion about same sex (for/against), way before my original post.

Again, the true issue is: The thread will be locked and hidden due to the behavior already shown by both sides because the forum community cannot carry a mature or civil discussion.

I am done explaining over a year of past practice to you from the forum community and SE. The debate has been beaten to death and there is nothing new the community has brought to the table from both sides of the subject as there is no new info from SE regarding sex/gender of the marriage system.

That is my true point.

Idk what's all the hubba about but if people can deal with marriages in real life then why not in games?
I played with a lot of couples in game who were happily married and have children, they all seemed like nice and civil ppl.
So what's all the commotion about being able to get married again in the game?
Cuz i remember that it takes both sides to agree to a marriage and that gender is only a thing that is defined by the chromosomes in your body. Hence why they made pokemon X & Y.

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Originally Posted by KyahAlmasy

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Even according to recent polls, the majority of Japanese oppose gay marriage and even more say they are uncomfortable with homosexuals. Their acceptance rates are among some of the lowest internationally. It should also be noted that both civil unions and same sex marriages are not legal anywhere in Japan.

To be fair, I'd be willing to wager that the majority of the opposition comes from Japan's aging population, and that the younger generations are more accepting of it, who would also probably better represent FFXIV's primary player demographic. So, it probably is more the case that the big wigs at SE are stuck in their ways and just being stubborn about it.

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Originally Posted by Dijana

I'm for it, I want to see it. Im just trying to voice a possible reason of the other side

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They really don't need you helping them with excuses. If you're for it, support it. Don't try and help them out by searching for reasons for them to say no.

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Originally Posted by ReplicaX

Being uncivil, using an untactful approach, and breaking forum etiquette is no excuse no matter how just or right a cause is.

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I haven't seen a single person in this thread breaking forum etiquette, unless you're counting the trolls who come in all, "inb4 lock"-like. It is always the trolls that get these threads locked, not the people supporting marriage equality.

But to too many people on this forum, even just speaking our mind is being "uncivil".

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Originally Posted by Rahzel

Even according to recent polls, the majority of Japanese oppose gay marriage and even more say they are uncomfortable with homosexuals. Their acceptance rates are among some of the lowest internationally. It should also be noted that both civil unions and same sex marriages are not legal anywhere in Japan.

To be fair, I'd be willing to wager that the majority of the opposition comes from Japan's aging population, and that the younger generations are more accepting of it, who would also probably better represent FFXIV's primary player demographic. So, it probably is more the case that the big wigs at SE are stuck in their ways and just being stubborn about it.

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Polls really only reflect the percentage of people who actually participated in the poll though, and let's be honest -- the older generation is probably more prone to voice their objection than our indifferent younger generation. If you were to hold a poll comprised mostly of our older generation here in the US, I'd wager that the results would come up very similar. Though I honestly don't feel like they'd really care what happens on a video game, unless of course *Ahem* they're working for a company producing them.

I think you nailed it right there to be honest. It's not that Yoshi is scared that some random, obscure group of people in japan will protest his game, but that some big head in an office might get angry and rain thunder on his head.

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Originally Posted by ReplicaX

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The marriage system update was announced and info regarding it, including statements by Yoshi himself about same-sex marriage. Seems like a pretty normal progression of this thread. Much like SE is making this a big deal by not allowing it, you are making a big deal of a single statement by bringing it up over and over. Just let it go. You know why the threads are closed? Because it becomes derailed like this. Obviously I am contributing too, but I am trying to turn it back towards the issue, you keep turning it back to a statement. It wasn't even a bad statement. If wasn't the best to be made, but it wasn't a flaming one. (No pu-- nevermind.)

With all the sensetive issues of same-sex marriage and all, it's funny that they chose to actually go through with naming it that way.

I think if they only changed the name to something like "the buddy system" or "partner system" or whatever, it would have saved them a huge chunk of bad press, and the same-sex thing wouldn't even exist. But right now if you think about it, they're gonna get hated on either way they choose to go.

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Originally Posted by KhalidTheGreat

With all the sensetive issues of same-sex marriage and all, it's funny that they chose to actually go through with naming it that way.

I think if they only changed the name to something like "the buddy system" or "partner system" or whatever, it would have saved them a huge chunk of bad press, and the same-sex thing wouldn't even exist. But right now if you think about it, they're gonna get hated on either way they choose to go.

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Changing the name wouldn't have made any difference in how it was perceived.

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

Changing the name wouldn't have made any difference in how it was perceived.

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It would have if they didn't mention the word marriage in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

Changing the name wouldn't have made any difference in how it was perceived.

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I think it surely would... Of course for a bigger effect needs to do more things like not force the wedding cloths on the quest etc, but changing the name alone will make a diff if even the tiniest...

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Originally Posted by Razzle

I think it surely would... Of course for a bigger effect needs to do more things like not force the wedding cloths on the quest etc, but changing the name alone will make a diff if even the tiniest...

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I doubt it. Even if it worked for some people, other people (like me) would have thought it was a cop out. "Buddy system" really? Its a marriage system.

Maybe if they created their own word that fit in the lore of the game. But not just buddy system or partner system.

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Originally Posted by Tule

I doubt it. Even if it worked for some people, other people (like me) would have thought it was a cop out. "Buddy system" really? Its a marriage system.

Maybe if they created their own word that fit in the lore of the game. But not just buddy system or partner system.

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Yes, really. There are already games that get away with renaming the system. Maybe on people like you and me it won't work, but it will make a differance to others who will see the system for the first time (and seeing as the majority dont frequent the forums, I believe the majority will see it in game the first time without even hearing about it before).

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Originally Posted by game

Soul Mate system where two players can become Soul Mates. If one Soul Mate is offline, the player can help to level up his soul mate's character. Experience will be stored for the Soul Mate that is offline. Soul Mates also have access to special skills available only to them.

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That's a quote from a real MMORPG
Replace the "Soul Mate" system with "Marriage/married/husband/wife" system, and can clearly see which would annoy ppl that are against SSM more.

If it was named something else it could be cooler.

Like if it was some kind of "Astral" or "Umbral" connection... it could be used in other ways... like two players that were born twins. It would widen the appeal and make it less contentious.

Just because you are soul mates of some kind, doesn't mean it's romantic.

Examples- You could be twins... brother and sister. Brothers. Sisters. Mom and daughter/Father and son (legacy bond), best friends, romantic couple... even mortal enemies.

This "fate bond" or "Bond that Time Can't Bind" seems cooler in the context of the game to me than "marriage".

with an Astral Bond or Umbral Bond, you could even have the bond be friendly, or adversarial. Cooler.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

If it was named something else it could be cooler.

Like if it was some kind of "Astral" or "Umbral" connection... it could be used in other ways... like two players that were born twins. It would widen the appeal and make it less contentious.

Just because you are soul mates of some kind, doesn't mean it's romantic.

Examples- You could be twins... brother and sister. Brothers. Sisters. Mom and daughter/Father and son (legacy bond), best friends, romantic couple... even mortal enemies.

This "fate bond" or "Bond that Time Can't Bind" seems cooler in the context of the game to me than "marriage".

with an Astral Bond or Umbral Bond, you could even have the bond be friendly, or adversarial. Cooler.

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Aethereal Union!

I guess that idea is not bad, i like it.

Leave all marriage out of FFXIV, until you decide to include everyone.

For the time being, level your goldsmith up, make a ring that bears your name, and give it to your loved one. Have them do the same in return. Tada.

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Originally Posted by Astralos

Leave all marriage out of FFXIV, until you decide to include everyone.

For the time being, level your goldsmith up, make a ring that bears your name, and give it to your loved one. Have them do the same in return. Tada.

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Leave marriage out of MMOs until it is no longer a soapbox issue across the world.
People demanding same sex marriage are doing so for political reasons and most of them have no actual intention of using the mechanic in game.
People against adding same sex marriage to the game are doing so for political/religious reasons and probably have no desire to use the mechanic in game.

Play the game. Leave politics to real life.

this is why we can't have nice things.
people always got to round about stuff and make things difficul and then say stuff like this just to stir the pot:

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Originally Posted by Jewelfox

Please tell me they're not going to have gendered restrictions on who can get married. >_>

Straight people flaunt their sexuality enough without having yet another thing they can hold over everyone else.

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this is completely incorrect. i mean this is so wrong that idk wtf youre even talking about. ive never in my life
seen a straight person brag and nag abt them being straight, hell i never done it. way to generalize a whole group
and be completely wrong. there are more gays trying to get married in rl, and have equal rights and stuff
never seen a straight parade. im all in for gay rights 100% btw!

This will not end well.

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Originally Posted by Luxx

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Yes, there are more gay people that are TRYING to get married because they aren't allowed. This goes with what I was saying about straight people being "normal". One of my favorite comedians ever really annoyed me when he was saying that gay people holding hands in public is flaunting their sexuality. This is how real people look at things. Showing your sexuality is flaunting, when a gay person does it there is a problem, when straight people do it somehow it is normal. You can turn on movies, tv shows, read comics, books and you can have a chapter about some "dude" "chilling" and talking about "hot chicks" and nothing matters. Have a gay guy talk about how hot another man is an all of a sudden it is a news story. I remember not long ago a cable company in America refused to air a new sitcom because it had a gay marriage in it. Same thing with this topic. Marriage in game. Awesome. Gay marriage in game? Well we don't want to be controversial..

Why is that controversial? Because of bigotry. Its a double standard. You don't see straight people "flaunting" because you consider it normal. But if you put yourself in the shoes of a gay person can you really say there isn't some resemblance to "flaunting" happening? It might not be on purpose, it might not be malicious, but it does happen.

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Originally Posted by Luxx

this is why we can't have nice things.
people always got to round about stuff and make things difficul and then say stuff like this just to stir the pot:


this is completely incorrect. i mean this is so wrong that idk wtf youre even talking about. ive never in my life
seen a straight person brag and nag abt them being straight, hell i never done it. way to generalize a whole group
and be completely wrong. there are more gays trying to get married in rl, and have equal rights and stuff
never seen a straight parade. im all in for gay rights 100% btw!

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http://m.dailykos.com/story/2012/01/...e-they-are-gay

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Originally Posted by Tule

But if you put yourself in the shoes of a gay person can you really say there isn't some resemblance to "flaunting" happening? It might not be on purpose, it might not be malicious, but it does happen.

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So you are saying the answer to all of the controversy is just have everyone bedazzle their Nikes?

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Originally Posted by Tule

Why is that controversial? Because of bigotry. Its a double standard. You don't see straight people "flaunting" because you consider it normal. But if you put yourself in the shoes of a gay person can you really say there isn't some resemblance to "flaunting" happening? It might not be on purpose, it might not be malicious, but it does happen.

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Two people holding hands or sharing a light kiss, regardless of genders, is fine.

When two people make a show of it, full-on make-out session in public, going up to people and saying how much they're in love, throwing it in your face, etc, IS flaunting it. And what sexuality do I see doing that more often? No, its not because its "abnormal" (I have gay friends AND relatives, and do support equality, so don't go crying to me about being a bigot), many gay people feel the need to "show off" as a way of "rebellion" because some people see them as "wrong"...and fail to realize it just ticks most people off (even some of their supporters) because they don't want to see it from anyone.

I don't care what you do behind closed doors. I don't want to see anything more than small actions (holding hands, light kissing, hugs, etc) in public, from ANYONE. Keep it private, and if you can't be in public with your partner without being able to control yourself then stop going out in public with them. Again...that applies to everyone.

Also...stop thinking that everyone is out to get you, that people are "attacking" you just because you're "different" when they just want you to stop throwing your sexual preferences in everyone's faces and making every little thing a political argument. Most people don't care. Its a a very good way to drive supporters from "support" to "indifference".

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Originally Posted by PArcher

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I see straight people holding hands, hugging, kissing all the time. I don't think I've ever seen gay people kiss in my entire life. Then again, I live in Texas. Then again, what I said about that cable company is true. That comedian making the comment and being supported that holding hands is flaunting is true. The fact that gay marriage in America is still an issue is real. The acts against gay people around the world is true. The fact that I have heard people call gay people or people they suspect as gay names is true. The aren't adding gay marriage in a game because people are still offended by what people do behind closed door is true. But you're right. Gay people are crazy and are making a much to do about nothing.

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Originally Posted by Tule

I don't think I've ever seen gay people kiss in my entire life. Then again, I live in Texas.

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This quote wins the internet.

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Originally Posted by Tule

SNIP

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You say what I described doesn't happen? Go take a trip to NYC.

And lol, I wouldn't go talking about the some parts of the world. Don't forget, in many places women are still little better than slaves, and heck, ARE slaves in places. At least you can hide what makes you "different" by *gasp* not showing off when you have to travel...
As a woman, I don't dare go to certain places without company because its dangerous for a woman to be alone, even here in the USA.

Like I said, if you can't control yourself in public with your partner (again, I don't care what your preference is), don't go out in public with them.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

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I am not gay. But if I was I shouldn't be forced to hide it. And not hiding it isn't flaunting. I also never claimed that people don't do what you are describing. You however were making light of what happens to gay people. By claiming "Most people don't care". If MOST people didn't care this discussion wouldn't be happening because there would be gay marriage in the game. Or just, you know, marriage.

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Originally Posted by Tule

I am not gay. But if I was I shouldn't be forced to hide it. And not hiding it isn't flaunting. I also never claimed that people don't do what you are describing. You however were making light of what happens to gay people. By claiming "Most people don't care". If MOST people didn't care this discussion wouldn't be happening because there would be gay marriage in the game. Or just, you know, marriage.

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The reality is, most people don't care. A small minority is for, and a small minority is against.

This is true for almost everything that happens. A very vocal minority screams so loud people think they are the majority, when in fact the majority are indifferent.

Most people are nothing more than sheep; "following" whoever is the loudest just so they can live in "peace", or so trouble doesn't come to them.

Also, I am not making light of the situation; you just are clueless as to how the real world works, only focusing on one (TBH, really small) aspect. Women make up over half the world's population, and yet in many, many places are second-rate "citizens" at best (including parts of the US), at worst, slaves. And women can't hide what they are.
There are always going to be people and cultures intolerant to certain things. You can't make the world see everything as you want it to. Avoid those who don't like you, embrace those that do, but don't be pushy or you'll lose those who support you

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Originally Posted by PArcher

The reality is, most people don't care. A small minority is for, and a small minority is against.

This is true for almost everything that happens. A very vocal minority screams so loud people think they are the majority, when in fact the majority are indifferent.

Most people are nothing more than sheep; "following" whoever is the loudest just so they can live in "peace", or so trouble doesn't come to them.

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Well enough people care and enough people are loud enough that people are having things denied to them. So you're really going to tell them to shut up and stop complaining? This is just a thread, you could not read it. And before you respond the same to me, I am trying to show support so something will change. I'm not just here fighting because people annoy me, I'm here because what is happening is wrong.

I think I came up with an idea that may be able to appease everyone. First go ahead and toss same sex marriage in there for gay community, then toss in some new nonrhinestonecowboy armor in the game for bards for the nongay community.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

I think I came up with an idea that may be able to appease everyone. First go ahead and toss same sex marriage in there for gay community, then toss in some new nonrhinestonecowboy armor in the game for bards for the nongay community.

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I think everyone can get behind that.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

The reality is, most people don't care. A small minority is for, and a small minority is against.

This is true for almost everything that happens. A very vocal minority screams so loud people think they are the majority, when in fact the majority are indifferent.

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Sums up just about every big argument that happens on these forums.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Also, I am not making light of the situation; you just are clueless as to how the real world works, only focusing on one (TBH, really small) aspect. Women make up over half the world's population, and yet in many, many places are second-rate "citizens" at best (including parts of the US), at worst, slaves. And women can't hide what they are.
There are always going to be people and cultures intolerant to certain things. You can't make the world see everything as you want it to. Avoid those who don't like you, embrace those that do, but don't be pushy or you'll lose those who support you

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Again. This topic is about marriage. A quote from YOSHI about GAY MARRIAGE was said. This is the obvious progression of this thread. So I'm clueless because I'm not randomly talking about women's rights in a marriage thread? I'm not talking about women's rights because this isn't the topic for it. This topic is perfect for gay rights. Thats why its being talked about. What about gay rights is so annoying to you? Flamboyant people that shove their sexuality in their face? Okay, but thats not me. Thats not gay marriage, thats not this topic. You are bringing completely unrelated things up for what purpose? To take steam out of someone asking for something as simple as equal rights in a video game? Why? Why does that bother you? I don't know how the real world works? Based on what? Based on the fact that I don't bring up every injustice ever to occur in an unrelated topic? Yes, there are going to be people who don't like you. I don't like you. I'm not trying to make it so you can't get married. Thats when it goes too far.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

I think I came up with an idea that may be able to appease everyone. First go ahead and toss same sex marriage in there for gay community, then toss in some new nonrhinestonecowboy armor in the game for bards for the nongay community.

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Great idea!

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Originally Posted by Gnova

People demanding same sex marriage are doing so for political reasons and most of them have no actual intention of using the mechanic in game.

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I've seen lots of people in this thread and the ones that came before it explaining how gender restrictions in a marriage system would impact them. Stop making stuff up.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

It is always the trolls that get these threads locked, not the people supporting marriage equality.

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I wish this was true over the course of an entire year on this debate but it is not. Both sides have been guilty of it, trolls aside. I'm not even referencing this thread with this statement now. This thread is very mild to ones prior.

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Originally Posted by ReplicaX

I wish this was true over the course of an entire year on this debate but it is not. Both sides have been guilty of it, trolls aside. I'm not even referencing this thread with this statement now. This thread is very mild to ones prior.

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Wouldn't surprise me if the poster who snowballed this topic was trolling tbh.