Tanks Who Constantly Queue and Then Withdraw Trying to Get in Progress Instances

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Originally Posted by Taliph

Pot meet kettle...

Simply put, you exploit (yes I use this word, because that is what it is) the "in progress" check box when you repeatedly decline to fish for that 2/4 or 3/4 party. The duty finder was intended to quickly form groups from random people, not to give a few tanks a shortcut through the content to the parts they deem most worthy of their time. You do in fact rob time from those others who queued in good faith by forcing them to sit doing nothing but watching the "searching for replacement" message. In extreme cases even moving those people back in the queue as illustrated several times in this thread.

If you chose to ignore these facts, you are the problem, and deserve the punishment systems described in this thread to be put in place.

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you do know that its more then tanks doing this??? i see DPS and heals doing this all the time. and untill SE says its against the rules or is an exploit its not. and it does not rob time from others you sir have no idea.... take the jumping in pvp SE came out and said almost instantly Dont do it its not intended we are fixing it..... but nothing with inprogress.... how come???? exactly cause nothing is wrong with doing it.

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Originally Posted by Seig345

SE didn't say abusing the old glitch with the Chimera was against the rules, but once they found out about it, they laid down the rule rather quick. So... anything's free game until SE catches on and holds your hand with a TOS addendum?

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exactly they came out with a statement about jumping in pvp almost instantly..... and still nothing with inprogress... hmmm?

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Originally Posted by Kazamoto

What law explicitly says, someone from the internet may not poke you in the eye with a spork?

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An assault is carried out by a threat of bodily harm coupled with an apparent, present ability to cause the harm. It is both a crime and a tort and, therefore, may result in either criminal and/or civil liability. Generally, the common law definition is the same in criminal and tort law. There is, however, an additional criminal law category of assault consisting of an attempted but unsuccessful battery.

spork assault nets man prison
1 YEAR: Victim was stabbed with hybrid fork-spoon utensil.

Anchorage Daily News http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/558820.html/

Published: October 17th, 2008 01:54 AM
Last Modified: October 17th, 2008 07:53 AM

A man who stabbed another man with a spork, a combination fork and spoon, earlier this year in what police said was an attempted robbery was sentenced Thursday to a year in prison for felony assault.


shall i say owned?

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Originally Posted by Taliph

Pot meet kettle...

Simply put, you exploit (yes I use this word, because that is what it is) the "in progress" check box when you repeatedly decline to fish for that 2/4 or 3/4 party. The duty finder was intended to quickly form groups from random people, not to give a few tanks a shortcut through the content to the parts they deem most worthy of their time. You do in fact rob time from those others who queued in good faith by forcing them to sit doing nothing but watching the "searching for replacement" message. In extreme cases even moving those people back in the queue as illustrated several times in this thread.

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Again, a person choosing to withdraw is not affecting you. Can you prove its the same person? Can you prove its always tanks doing it? Can you prove your queue time is made longer because of another player needing to withdraw?

Moot and queue. Moot and queue.

Spell it out with me now.

On topic, any tanks that do this are selfish d-bags and I'm all for a harsh penalty for those that do it in succession.

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Originally Posted by Taliph

You do in fact rob time from those others who queued in good faith by forcing them to sit doing nothing but watching the "searching for replacement" message.

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No idea why it's such a hard concept for them to understand.

I'm not sure why people are continually arguing with Angiline, they obviously don't care that this method is affecting multitudes of people daily in a negative way, so lets just note that and move on. No one wins arguing in circles with someone who just won't get it. I'm leaning towards troll either way.

There are plenty of reasonable suggestions in this thread, I hope SE addresses this soon and implements one of them. I'm personally not happy with the current one, and what it allows.

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Originally Posted by Traek

I'm not sure why people are continually arguing with Angiline, they obviously don't care that this method is affecting multitudes of people daily in a negative way, so lets just note that and move on. No one wins arguing in circles with someone who just won't get it. I'm leaning towards troll either way.

There are plenty of reasonable suggestions in this thread, I hope SE addresses this soon and implements one of them. I'm personally not happy with the current one, and what it allows.

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you do know there are several people that agree with me.... and we have proven it doesnt increase your wait time. i actually dont do this because i need loot off first 2 bosses. But i know people that do and it still doesnt bother me.

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Originally Posted by Taliph

It affects me if I am gathering and I have to stop doing so to change jobs, thus removing any GP I have saved up, and then not being able to resume gathering for the amount of time it takes for a legit person to take that place... Also healers and dps tend to have much longer queue times regardless of this issue making this exploiting of the system much less likely.

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ive never waited more hten 10min solo queueing for CT as a dps and ive never waited longer then 5min as a healer for CT.

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Originally Posted by Kazamoto

You can try, but you owned yourself.

That law, was not explicitly about spork poking. That was general assault, applied to an individual case.

That means, as I hoped you would understand, that just because a rule does not explicitly say something is disallowed, it still may be a violation of a broader rule.




This, could be applied to the situation of DF-ditching as it disrupts the game experience of other players, and disrupts the the instance servers normal functions.

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did you not read the whole case law i gave a specific ruleing of sporking someone is against the law... come one you got to give me props for actually finding a case that involves a spork to the EYE none the less.

The solution from 90% of the responses here would leave 99% of the population banned from the game. Seriously, tell me that you haven't queue dodged for one reason or another. I will laugh in your face. "ODIN UP!" "Dang, duty just popped. Let me cancel it!" / "Oh, duty popped but so did that Unspoiled Node that I have been waiting for!" / "Ah, the daily FATE just popped!" / "I can go microwave some food and get a drink while I wait. Shit, I just missed the queue." / "Oh, you need a tank for CT, hold on let me withdraw from this duty."
So you want SE to read every single players mind and see if they dodged for legit reasons? You want SE to waste man power and server space to keep logs of EVERY single queue dodger's dodge record? Let's be realistic here. Next tank the queues up will most likely be down for the dungeon. Stop whining because someone cost you an extra 30 seconds.

People waste other people's time everyday in real life. You really just have to suck it up and move on with your life or you are going to find yourself bitter and worked up over little things like this.

"It is not against rules to withdraw repeatedly until I get a good in-progress one."

True, neither is being the first to leave a duty, yet you get a 30min penalty for doing so.

It has also been repeatedly explained how this withdraw spam does indeed slow your queue.

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Originally Posted by Vech

The solution from 90% of the responses here would leave 99% of the population banned from the game. Seriously, tell me that you haven't queue dodged for one reason or another. I will laugh in your face. "ODIN UP!" "Dang, duty just popped. Let me cancel it!" / "Oh, duty popped but so did that Unspoiled Node that I have been waiting for!" / "Ah, the daily FATE just popped!" / "I can go microwave some food and get a drink while I wait. Shit, I just missed the queue." / "Oh, you need a tank for CT, hold on let me withdraw from this duty."

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That is different from hitting withdraw repeatedly, looking for a good in-progress CT.

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Originally Posted by Doo

No idea why it's such a hard concept for them to understand.

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I don't think thats its that they don't understand, I think they just don't want to understand, FFXIV is thier "holy land" they can do whatever they want till someone from SE tells them otherwise. They know they can't act like this in the real world or they would get stuffed in a locker at school, so here they are living that life of griefing others that so often brought upon them in the real world and because its thier holy land they're defending it with all they have. Chances are they come from single parent households and don't really have much going for them so they don't play well with others.

I think part of the problem is with no strong male figure around to lay down the law they have no sense of responsibility which is why you see the behavior they are exhibiting right now, this is where they can be that warlord and try to take whatever they want. I feel kind sorry for them.

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Originally Posted by Sove92

"It is not against rules to withdraw repeatedly until I get a good in-progress one."

True, neither is being the first to leave a duty, yet you get a 30min penalty for doing so.

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There is a huge difference to back out of signing a contract BEFORE you sign it than entering contract and trying to BREAK it.

Ha, I am pretty awed when I meet see the rare and "special" type of person, that plagues everyone with terribly obnoxious behavior, and then when they find out how annoyed everyone is by it, thinks that it's those peoples fault for being annoyed. I hope that Angeline is 13 years old. We should all get together and pitch in for some kind of etiquette or social skills class.

I do indeed give props for that, but the case law you listed, never does the law of spork attack get mentioned.

"the charge was reduced to felony assault with a deadly weapon, which comes with a year of prison time"

The broad law 'felony assault with a deadly weapon' is applied to this specific case, just as the TOS prohibits any activity that is disruptive to other players.

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Originally Posted by Vech

stuff

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You listed a number of GREAT reasons why 1 person might miss a single, maybe even TWO dungeon queues.

The suggested penalties would be for people who have... 5, 8, 15 skipped queues in a set, short time period.

If Odin is popping 15 times in an hour, something is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Kazamoto

You can try, but you owned yourself.

That law, was not explicitly about spork poking. That was general assault, applied to an individual case.

That means, as I hoped you would understand, that just because a rule does not explicitly say something is disallowed, it still may be a violation of a broader rule.




This, could be applied to the situation of DF-ditching as it disrupts the game experience of other players, and disrupts the the instance servers normal functions.


Who are all from your FC, or are in fact, you.

Also, trying to support your own arguments with an alternative account would count as violations of this prohibited action:

1. Impersonating another person or taking action that might reasonably be mistaken as the actions of another.

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if you go back through the thread there has been several people that have supproted my view. and they are not cihard or my self.

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Originally Posted by Lukahn

Ha, I am pretty awed when I meet see the rare and "special" type of person, that plagues everyone with terribly obnoxious behavior, and then when they find out how annoyed everyone is by it, thinks that it's those peoples fault for being annoyed. I hope that Angeline is 13 years old. We should all get together and pitch in for some kind of etiquette or social skills class.

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if you read the thread I actually dont do this... its because i need loot off first 2 bosses... however i'm not against others that do it because it doesnt negativly effect me.

I posted the forum rules above. Others were banned for posting peoples names in a negative manner, from IN GAME, with random accusations that are difficult to support.

In the sense of fairness, this is my SE Lodestone page: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...racter/349249/
Worst part is I'm not on my BRD with its shiny gear, and I still have to beat titan on my PLD for relic...


you may notice the link, right at the top of the page that says lodestone.

I posted nothing that could not be found by clicking 2-3 links. Funny thing is, it already says your name, every time you post. All someone has to do is click your picture, and it will list all of your characters.

And there is nothing I could say negatively about any of the people I linked, who are in this conversation, that would do more damage than the words they themselves typed.

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Originally Posted by Kazamoto

I do indeed give props for that, but the case law you listed, never does the law of spork attack get mentioned.

"the charge was reduced to felony assault with a deadly weapon, which comes with a year of prison time"

The broad law 'felony assault with a deadly weapon' is applied to this specific case, just as the TOS prohibits any activity that is disruptive to other players. You listed a number of GREAT reasons why 1 person might miss a single, maybe even TWO dungeon queues.

The suggested penalties would be for people who have... 5, 8, 15 skipped queues in a set, short time period.

If Odin is popping 15 times in an hour, something is wrong.

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right first was the definition of assult. Second was the actually "case law" case law means being proven as unlawful through a ruleing in court case. so this case proves stabbing someone in the eye with a spork is against the law and is felony assult.

so in compairison SE would have to state by banning some one for doing this and label it as this.
From the FINAL FANTASY XIV User Agreement
3.2 Disruption. You may not in any way disrupt or interfere with the Game experience of other players, including the disruption of Square Enix's computers and servers.


untill they do that there is no precedent to state that this action falls under these rules. since there is no explicit rule stating its against the rules.

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Originally Posted by Doo

I don't know what's going on but switch to another account and getting more aggressive and insulting is troubling.

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i switched accounts because i ran out of posts for the day on that account.

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Originally Posted by Nica

Yea, half of which is you and your alts.



Funny, all I’ve seen on that is you saying it doesn’t. Here’s a hint, babbling something repeatedly to yourself doesn’t make it true.
Anyone with a shred of logical reasoning ability can see how the constant DF spam can do increase wait time.

let’s say overall each failed spam takes approx. 4 seconds from start to finish, and you get… five of those per minute (a rather low number at times), that means a full 20 seconds of that minute you were not even in the queue anymore, that’s a full 33% of the time when you are literally not even eligible to receive a viable member.



Do you really want to go there? Nevermind the worthlessness of you unsupported anecdotal statement that’s more than likely false anyway, to imply something as lol-worthy and easily proven false as dps never waits more than 10 min solo-queuing is so laughable it’s sad.

You’re really just grasping for anything at this point aren’t you?

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i have 1 alts this acocunt my other account is cichard smith. there at least 5 other people that agre with me in the first 12 pages or 13 pages of the thread... i dont have to prove my point to you. You refuse to see the evidence that doesnt support your theory. So instead of arguing with you i am gonna play the game now and look for in progress dungeon queues... because its not against the rules to do so!

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Originally Posted by Kazamoto

So we have effectively circled back around to:

"Until someone actually gets in trouble for the think I know could fall under a violation, it's perfectly ok to do."

Shortly followed by:

"They caught me doing that thing, punished me, and its so unfair because wahhhhhhh"

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and this thread is no more then Wahhhhhh wahhhhh people keep withdrawing from queue makes me feel like my queue time is extended wahh wahh bann them bann them burn them with fire. whahh wahh. thats all this really is and come 2.2 is Mute when you can queue up wiht 24 people.

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Originally Posted by Fiorana

I think part of the problem is with no strong male figure around to lay down the law they have no sense of responsibility which is why you see the behavior they are exhibiting right now, this is where they can be that warlord and try to take whatever they want. I feel kind sorry for them.

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I don't know what's going on but switching to another account and getting more aggressive and insulting is troubling.

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Originally Posted by Cichard

first off you do not have to keep clicking it.... if someone with draws before the timer is up you dont need to click it.... you only need to click it before your timer is up. it if goes away before your timer is up it doesnt effect you. and it is not increasing your time....

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Originally Posted by Angiline

you do not have to do anything extra at all.. you still only have to click commence 1 time. clicking anymore then that is your choice... clicking instantly when it pops every single time is your choice. thats on you no one else. No one is forcing you to click it every single time it instantly pops. You can wait 10 or 15 seconds to see if its gonna withdraw that way you only have to click your button 1 time. See your problem is solved you are welcome you can pay me in gil!

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Originally Posted by Kazamoto

You listed a number of GREAT reasons why 1 person might miss a single, maybe even TWO dungeon queues.

The suggested penalties would be for people who have... 5, 8, 15 skipped queues in a set, short time period.

If Odin is popping 15 times in an hour, something is wrong.

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Which begs to question my other point: What do you want SE to exactly do? Spend thousands of dollars and countless hours of manpower to log and track EVERY single players queue withdrawals and commencements and then try to see a pattern in their dodging behavior to see if they are withdrawing for proper reasons or just trying to get the legendary 2/3 dungeon queue pop? As much as you wish it to be true, SE cannot read minds. They cannot possibly tell if a dodge was legit or not and to implement more restrictions on something IS NOT THE PROPER ANSWER. If they fix it the way most complainers here want it to be fixed, we are going to have another thread in the months to follow titled: "I WAS AFK AND MISSED MY QUEUE POP BECAUSE I HAD TO POOP AND NOW I AM BANNED FOR 3 DAYS! WTF SE?!?!?!?!?!?!!?" "MY FC NEEDED ME ASAP TO FILL IN FOR A SPOT IN COIL SO I WITHDREW MY DUTY. NOW I CAN'T GO IN A DUTY FOR 30MINS WTF SE!"

Let's be realistic, you can suck it up and deal with the <30 seconds lost because of a dodger. It's not a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Angiline

stuff

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So we have effectively circled back around to:

"Until someone actually gets in trouble for the think I know could fall under a violation, it's perfectly ok to do."

Shortly followed by:

"They caught me doing that thing, punished me, and its so unfair because wahhhhhhh"

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Originally Posted by Vech

stuff

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Still more good reasons why someone might dodge one, maybe 2 queues.

Thank goodness this is a computer game and they can program some automated logic.

Skip 5 queues in 30 mins? Lock out of duty finder for an hour.
Skip 10 in 3 hours, 24 hour lock out from DF.

Even better, have a note in the log saying "You withdraw from duty [1/5]"
Let people know if they are getting near that threshold.

The issue isnt with people who sometimes have to click withdraw, the issue is people who click join - withdraw 20+ times in a row.

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Originally Posted by Angiline

you assume that its not intended it very well could be that this is working as it should be. But it may not be as well. but untill SE says hey dont do this no one has the right to say people should be "banned " for it thats absurd.

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Well, you're right. I am assuming. I believe they added the Join In Progress feature because they thought it would be a way for people to help other players. I believe that was their intent. That is my assumption.

Also, I'm not saying I think people should be banned, nor that I thought SE would take any such action. Nowhere in my post is the word "ban". I merely suggested that, if this continues, SE will likely take some sort of action; but I don't believe it will be bans. More likely they will add a penalty that will prevent people from entering an instance. Probably an hour. And I think it would only be triggered by withdrawing too many times within a window, like 3 times within an hour.

Also, I would like to reiterate a point. Yoshi said that the reason they don't allow Server Only in Duty Finder as an option is because if too many tanks or healers used that option, Duty Finder would essentially ceased to function if no one from those classes on your server was looking. The same would apply to Join In Progress only. If too many tanks were using Join In Progress Only, it would make it virtually impossible to form an initial party.

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Originally Posted by Milmoko_Gemoko

Really? We're solely blaming the Tanks?
I'm a tank myself (never ran my other classes in Dungeons or Guildheists) and my experience is with DPS repeatedly withdrawing from the queue, its maddening.

I dont think they should be a punishment though, just after 3 withdraws their locked into doing the instance - no "Commence" or "Withdrawn" option just dumped into it.

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This. I can't remember a single time a tank didn't accept, it's almost always a dps. I typically queue as a healer, though sometimes as tank or dps.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

They really need to start banning them. I main a PLD and it sickens me when this crap happens if I'm on another job. It's incredibly rude and needs to be punished.

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Over reaction man. You don't need a ban for this, you just need a withdraw penalty timer.. like maybe 5-10 minutes and problem will be solved.

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Originally Posted by Vanidin

This. I can't remember a single time a tank didn't accept, it's almost always a dps. I typically queue as a healer, though sometimes as tank or dps.

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I queue as a tank or dps. The offenders are generally tanks/healers. Those classes are the only ones that get instant queues. It's not that dps classes wouldn't be doing this if they could. Unfortunately in most cases, if they drop the queue they must wait for some time to try again.

It's not just tanks.

my wife and I get this too. And she is a warrior.

it's mostly dps who get bored of queue and go afk forgetting it.

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Originally Posted by DragonSlayer45

I have a better idea: How about they make "Join in Progress" actually work as intended? Make it so it is ONLY set to search for dungeons that are in need of another player. If Tanks need to wait 30 minutes for another Tank to drop in a in progress dungeon so they can join, so be it.

Once you select that button, you should only be searching for an In Progress dungeon, not one that's beginning.

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Am I just too good of a person to understand that "Join in Progress" simply means you're okay with potentially being setup into a party that is in-progress? It just baffles me that people actually believe that the option was intended to be exclusive rather than inclusive. In other words, re-queuing for only in-progress dungeon/raid is an abuse of the current system. "Abuse" being a very strong word mind you, but still applicable. Of course, it's not like they'll ban people for it, as it's impossible to prove grief potential/intentions.

This has to be fixed by SE however.

1) add an option to queue ONLY for party in progress.
2) limit the number of times you can use it daily.
3) if a forming party is interrupted by a players who rejects or is afk, just find a replacement for that player, without starting the queue over again.
Like "1 player didn't accept the duty, finding another one, stand by", than it's found and who has already accepted doesn't have to do it again.

players are not using this feature in the wrong way. Is the feature itself that is poorly made.

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Originally Posted by Tano

it's mostly dps who get bored of queue and go afk forgetting it.

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This does not apply to the complaint we are having.

A single DF timer counting all the way down, and then re-queuing is understandable.

We are talking about when the DF ready window is only up for 2 seconds because someone is ACTIVELY clicking withdraw, then requeing, then clicking withdraw again, and again if it is not what they want.

Adding a 1-2 min cooldown after withdrawing would be quick bandaid fix.

Im gonna goo crazy if people keep repeating "Im looking for a progress only dungeon" THERE IS NO SUCH THING! that option is for ALSO... as in "im ALSO interested in joining mid parties", That option is not there so you abuse the process.

Hmm i need a analogy.

You go to a shop to buy something, the clerk tells you "if you buy A, you get B free", but you act like you gonna buy A but you just want the free B(get it freebee hahaha..ok :/), then you stay there and argue with the clerk of how you just want B, while holding up the entire line.

Anything but Captcha

There is a really freaking easy solution to this - just remove the ability to see how many bosses are down when you join a group in progress. Viola.

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Originally Posted by Tano

it's mostly dps who get bored of queue and go afk forgetting it.

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Actually taking CT as example, getting 24/24 is much harder than 6/6, but i always see 24/24 and like 5/6.

So DPS are 4x more excited to join and are alert.

Im not supporting DPS or anything, i do play all classes. Tank imo is an entitled class.

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Originally Posted by omniwaink

There is a really freaking easy solution to this - just remove the ability to see how many bosses are down when you join a group in progress. Viola.

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Heck just 35 sec penalty is long enough to unclog the mess created by few spammers. Who is going to miss 35 sec seriously? (Rhetoric question btw)

lol, 26 pages of responses to a problem that Blizzard solved with WoW YEARS ago. What a joke.

Now that I think about this, I think I've figured out their likely solution to this. A cap. They'll likely cap the number of times you can queue with Join In Progress per week. Once you've hit the cap, you'll be forced to queue without it if you want to run an instance.

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Originally Posted by Mailstrum

except they do... the whole point of looking for inprogress is to save time... a tank waiting 20seconds then dropping isnt saving time. and defeats teh whole purpose of doing an inprogress run.

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Except that it obviously isn't. The purpose of having the in progress tic box is for those players who are not only looking to do a full run but who are also willing to help out a group in trouble. You would be right if the tic box only sent you to an in progress run.

But in my view there is a more fundamental issue. So the poster defending repeated withdraws because he only needs loot boxes 3 and 4 and therefore only wants to run the last half of the dungeon is like defending tanks who only need loot boxes 1 or 2 so drop right after.

I mean, same thing, right? He is opening up a slot after all for a tank only looking for 3 or 4. Sure it might inconvenience others committed to the whole run, but who's to say they wouldn't still be waiting anyway if the first-half tank hadn't been there. I know, maybe we should have a first-half-of-the-run only tic box...

I think we can pretty much conclude that while bans are excessive, this use of the in progress option is impolite and not being used as intended, despite the way it was designed, and SE should do something to fix it, even if those that use it in this manner don't like it.

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Originally Posted by Zakalwe

So the poster defending repeated withdraws because he only needs loot boxes 3 and 4 so only wants to run the last half of the dungeon is like defending tanks who only need loot boxes 1 or 2 so drop right after.

I mean, same thing, right? He is opening up a slot after all for a tank only looking for 3 or 4. Sure it might inconvenience others committed to the whole run, but who's to say they wouldn't still be waiting anyway if the first-half tank hadn't been there.

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This. That's why you cant just select a dungeon and pick which bosses you want to fight. Some of these guys actually think that dungeon runs should be handed to them on a silver platter.