Tanking Frustration: I blame WoW

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Originally Posted by zaviermhigo

FFXI and XIV are both about hate management. If xiv wasn't it wouldn't show you your hate bar when you target the mob, watch your hate, that is part of your job not just poking stuff, or hitting stuff, its also watching your hate, so do it. I play sch and blm, as a blm I've never pulled hate, you wait 10 secs for establishment of hate, then you start nuking. Stop being such a spammer. 10 secs isn't that long.

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Sometimes "poking stuff" is the same as threat management. Some of mini/bosses in this game tell you as such. I know for one, the sunken temple mini boss - Temple Guardians is very hard without proper threat management as he resets his threat every so often AS WELL AS being resistant to threat skills like Flash/Provoke.

I've never had that happen with my provoke, it either gets resisted or the mob comes back to me. But going back to what the OP said, the people he played with seemed like they were already introduced to MMO's. So while that is his own opinion, usually someone can tell if someone is brand to to the genre or just the game. In this case it might have been the game.

Also everyone has a responsibility, a DD's job is to do the most damage they can while staying alive, not to go crazy right at the get go. If the game allowed it then there would be no reason for tanks. The better the tank, the further the envelope can be pushed. FFXI taught that very well, and for those that learned it, it continues to be a valuable lesson today. For those that played easier games, because lets be honest there are a lot of easier games out there tanking wise they don't understand that.

Good players don't necessarily mean they have the best equipment, but it's understanding their roles to its fullest which means controlling your abilities and combos to sync up with the rest of the party. That's kind of why I wish weapon skills came back since it forced the DD's to line up to create awesome SC's for magic bursts. But it's not, and it sucks but oh well.

Oh and I've played with plenty of bad players, let them die and learn their mistake, you can tell someone so many times. If they don't listen that's on them, not you. Do whats best for the party, not the individual.

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Originally Posted by Keneblerz

I don't think anyone really knows how Provoke works. When i use it, i mostly use when a mob im not attacking goes for the healers. Immediately after i use, he B-lines for the healer again.

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Read the top post on page 5 of this thread. That is how provoke works.

It matches your current threat to the threat of the person who currently has highest plus 1 point of threat/damage. Provoke will turn a mob to you, but will not hold it if he person who had threat performs any action and you do not. Provoke doesn't really earn any threat, it just matches your threat to the highest in the group. So if you currently have threat and use Provoke, it won't do anything except go on cool down. Similarly, if you use it when you do not have threat, it will pullt he mob too you, but it is up to you to continue to earn more threat per second than the person you pulled it off of.

I have to really disagree with OP. Having played wow for almost 10 years as a tank, the way the role has evolved is in a very good place. The only game I find tanking to be more fun to play is Tera which has quite a unique gameplay aspect to it. The thing with Wow tanking (Especially Paladin and Death Knight) is that besides your basic cooldowns you have main rotation abilities that you can use however you want to provide healing/damage reduction when needed. You don't just mindlessly cycle through your rotation at progression content, but rather set up the use of your abilities such as Death Strike and Shield of Righteousness towards specific boss abilities. It feels like you have much more control of your own survival, rather than just hitting CDs when you get low. If you remember back when threat was a factor in Wow, it was up to the DPS to watch it. Tanks abilities were quite limited, so if the DPS pulled the boss even for a few seconds it was them not paying attention. FF threat is not like this, the tanks should be able to have control of it in most situations rather easily. The pulls are the only thing that require effort if your DPS are stupid.

Tanking should be about survival and using your abilities accordingly to reduce damage, that is what makes Wow and Tera tanking quite enjoyable. I don't mind threat being a factor, but currently tanking in this game is just too simple with the real hard job falling to the healer.

I came from the old school WoW days when Warrior tanks had 0 AOE or ranged threat generating skills. You had to be in melee range and to learn to tab target and sunder the entire time and taunt stuff that ran away. This FFXIV tanking is a piece of cake compared to those days.

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Originally Posted by PiedPiper

Provoke only puts you 1 point of threat above top target, so if regen ticks... poof you don't have it.


That said.... for both classes tanking is mind numbingly simple right now. Spam your main combo. Win. /done.

OP: You can continue using lob as they approcah you if you're really having that big an issue. It has a 6x multiplier with oath.

If DD's are pulling hate off you, it is YOUR FAULT. It is not their job to not dps. It is your job to keep its attention while they do. Less QQ more getting hit in the face. Think about it as tryign to maximize your own dps. More accurately, your own threat / per second.

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Absolutely wrong. Hate management is a party wide responsibility. If you're a DD and you know your tank is having a semi hard time holding Hate, it is your job to SLOW DOWN and allow him to build threat. DD's can pull hate off the Tank by going into DUR-P-S mode, more so if the Tank is subpar.

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Originally Posted by Keneblerz

Sometimes "poking stuff" is the same as threat management. Some of mini/bosses in this game tell you as such. I know for one, the sunken temple mini boss - Temple Guardians is very hard without proper threat management as he resets his threat every so often AS WELL AS being resistant to threat skills like Flash/Provoke.

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What I meant is take the time out of poking stuff to actually look at your hate, I'm not talking about bosses resetting hate, I'm talking about full boar spammers who face roll in the first 5 secs. Like they can't be bothered to look at anything else besides there abilities they are pressing. I've played dd and healer, as a healer I have to zoom out more to see the attacks and everyone on my screen just in case, I see a lot of stupid ass dd mistakes that way. I can tell who messed up and why a lot of time, just look at the actions people are pressing on the party list. The fact of the matter is, most of the time bad dds are too preoccupied just facerolling to even move out of attacks or watch hate. Hates really only a problem in the first 10-15 secs of battling mobs. Raid Awareness just isn't strong with the dds in this community. Not saying I haven't had good dds, just when I do I appreciate them more, cause 80% of them are terrible. I played 1.0 also, and XI, and in both of those games it wasn't hard to be a dd, it just took better gear, some dds in xi were like 5-10 macros at max. But in xiv arr, you need to know your class more, know what each ability does, know when to use one, a lot of dds aren't taking the time to actually learn to play their classes. I don't know if I blame them since you can spam to 50 in two days if you're dedicated enough with fates.

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Originally Posted by Delorean

you're not spamming flash enough

bind a sign for kill target

if they still pulling after that hope they have fun tanking

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Doesn't matter how much you spam flash in the start, for me its a 2.5 second refresh, and it takes at least 2 to set agro sometimes 3 depending on how stupid the dps are. I tell lancers and archers to count to 6 when i pull to let me get hate on the target and it seems to work for the most part. Dps are idiots, they don't wait for anything they see mobs they start firing or better yet archers see more then one mob,,,, omg i MUST use aoe attack no matter what.

Think its bad now just wait till the meters come out and its going to be pure hell for tanks. Sometimes i just let the dps with agro die a few times and they get the message. I saw a lot of this in mid 30 to early 40 ish but its not so bad now but hell even in HM ifriti i engage him and dps goes bat shit, its not really an issue for me but i feel sorry for the warrior and they do that, i have to provoke the mob get it on me so they can get agro set to take it off me. Its ridicules,

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Originally Posted by PiedPiper

Read the top post on page 5 of this thread. That is how provoke works.

It matches your current threat to the threat of the person who currently has highest plus 1 point of threat/damage. Provoke will turn a mob to you, but will not hold it if he person who had threat performs any action and you do not. Provoke doesn't really earn any threat, it just matches your threat to the highest in the group. So if you currently have threat and use Provoke, it won't do anything except go on cool down. Similarly, if you use it when you do not have threat, it will pullt he mob too you, but it is up to you to continue to earn more threat per second than the person you pulled it off of.

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Wrong and here is your sign, if a dps is getting beat on they need to stop dpsing (which they don't) and bring it to the tank or stand still. If the tank is doing all they can and there hate is maxed and the dps still pulls it off at times the dps needs to see that and slow the heck down, its not a race to kill mob but some of them don't see it like that.

Agro is a group effort in this game, plain and simple. The healer and dps have to be proactive in monitoring their enmity and wait for a good establishment of agro when tank pulls. I too have been spoiled by previous MMOs - mainly wow - and I was main healing raids. I was used to not having to pay attention at all to threat. Once the tank pulled, I could go apesh*t on my spells and not even come close to pulling agro. Now that I've moved to full time tanking for FFXIV, I've discovered that this game puts the onus back on the entire party. The tank must do his job and spam threat-producing abilities while the dps/heals have to monitor how much punishment/healing they're putting out, and WHEN they decide to put it out.

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Originally Posted by PiedPiper

Provoke only puts you 1 point of threat above top target, so if regen ticks... poof you don't have it.


That said.... for both classes tanking is mind numbingly simple right now. Spam your main combo. Win. /done.

OP: You can continue using lob as they approcah you if you're really having that big an issue. It has a 6x multiplier with oath.

If DD's are pulling hate off you, it is YOUR FAULT. It is not their job to not dps. It is your job to keep its attention while they do. Less QQ more getting hit in the face. Think about it as tryign to maximize your own dps. More accurately, your own threat / per second.

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Threat in this game isn't a given quantity like in other coddling MMOs. Just because you personally may not have perceived an issue with holding threat doesn't mean that the problem does not exist within the game. It means, more often than not, you've had dps and healers who have actually paid attention to their threat instead of going buck-wild on targets before you get to them. It's a party effort, and it seems you've been fortunate enough so far to be with competent players that don't allow themselves to get pwnd by over-zealous dps or heals that jump the gun. You definitely have your sub-par tanks as well, but the mechanics aren't as forgiving in FFXIV like they are in MMOs like wow. Threat must be managed by each and every party member.