Summoner Health Check

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Originally Posted by Uzephi

Responsiveness has not been resolved. If that was the case, it wouldn't take nearly a full second for Eos/Selene to cast Whispering Dawn after the button press.

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a delay happens if you had them do two actions one after another, like fey blessing and whispering dawn, a very brief one happens when they're in the middle of their auto heal, otherwise it's been almost immediate. Any other delay I've noticed is due to their animation, much in the way Holy takes an extra second to actually hit after casting. It's significantly faster than how it was in ShB either ways and they don't ghost your input either

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

The issue is that some players want to have the 'simple' and 'optimal' be at the same point. They want the output of 'simple' to be 100%, which leaves no room for 'optional additional complexity' to exist

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The problem with "optional" complexity is that if its optimal, then it ceases to be optional, as people WILL demand others do the optional rotation and come down on them if they don't. We already have people who lose their minds whenever someone else doesn't use certain skills (or in the case of healers, when they DO use certain ones instead of DPSing), this would just be more of the same.

Likewise with the complex versus simple jobs, if the complex one hits harder, people will only want to bring the complex one. Even now people will shun entire jobs for being seen as the "weaker" option.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

The problem with "optional" complexity is that if its optimal, then it ceases to be optional, as people WILL demand others do the optional rotation and come down on them if they don't. We already have people who lose their minds whenever someone else doesn't use certain skills (or in the case of healers, when they DO use certain ones instead of DPSing), this would just be more of the same.

Likewise with the complex versus simple jobs, if the complex one hits harder, people will only want to bring the complex one. Even now people will shun entire jobs for being seen as the "weaker" option.

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That is a problem that is in players' own minds, and doesn't actually exist. A Direct-Hit Crit is roughly a 2x increase to potency, and so the potency increase for a WHM's Misery would be around 1400p (give or take, the multiplier isn't an exact 2x). Meanwhile, the difference between 'optimal' and 'spam your one filler GCD' in the example I gave, would be about 340p per full minute of gameplay. So, a single Misery failing to DH-Crit (and just being a 'regular' hit), would be a bigger DPS loss than just over FOUR FULL MINUTES of suboptimal play from the hypothetical SCH. If people want to go 'wah wah you have to play optimally', they're idiots for doing so, because the time it would take to type out 'you need to use your DOTs you're losing out on damage' would cost more damage (with the example numbers), than the amount that was being lost from not using the DOTs

Plus, the TOS exists and forbids such 'pressuring players into a certain playstyle'. If someone were to rage in partychat and go 'YOU MUST USE THE OPTIMAL ROTATION AAAA', then the player who is being pressured to use a rotation they're not familiar with, could report the rager. I don't think it's a sensible idea to design the complexities of a Job out of the game, because of the potential for someone to be toxic, because such toxicity will always exist, that's why the TOS is there to catch them. Instead, we now have simplified Jobs with less staying-power, but by your own admission, we still have toxic gamers complaining that what little remains in the kit is not being utilized correctly. What's the end goal, what's the 'logical conclusion' to this path, of 'trying to toxicity-proof the design of the Jobs'? A DPS Job that has only one action in its entire kit, and whose optimal gameplay was to just press 1, over and over? No DOTs or CD timers to watch, no 'wrong choice' to make in the rotation? And we'd STILL see toxicity, because toxicity in an MMO is inevitable, that's why the TOS is there

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

The problem with "optional" complexity is that if its optimal, then it ceases to be optional, as people WILL demand others do the optional rotation and come down on them if they don't. We already have people who lose their minds whenever someone else doesn't use certain skills (or in the case of healers, when they DO use certain ones instead of DPSing), this would just be more of the same.

Likewise with the complex versus simple jobs, if the complex one hits harder, people will only want to bring the complex one. Even now people will shun entire jobs for being seen as the "weaker" option.

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At that point, why not just remove everything from a jobs kit except for 1 skill each? Anything more complex than that will either be pointless (because it is entirely "optional", it won't be optimal, and so path of least resistance kicks in and the optional part is ignored) or won't meet the criteria for being optional because people will have to think through some quick decision making to find the best outcome in a given situation (also known as, gameplay).

Skill is an integral part of any game; how fast or creatively you can solve a puzzle, how much damage you can do in a short amount of time, seeing whether you can jump over that chasm in a Mario game; and naturally people want to feel rewarded for doing so. If you can't provide people with that higher skill ceiling (and an adequate reward for achieving it), you lose out on replayability and depth, which in turn gets people bored easily, which in turn gets them to leave. "Easy to learn, hard to master" has been a mantra for game designers for a very long time, and is the reason why chess and sports have stood the test of time for millennia.

It doesn't matter if people balk and complain that someone is only using the bare essentials in the kit, as long as it meets the skill floor doing enough DPS for enrage, and the necessary mitigation/healing to live, then anything beyond that is technically optional. This is a community problem, not a game design one, and usually it's more of a problem of perception (people thinking that others are judging their performance) when 99% of the time, they don't care how you play unless it's especially egregious or disruptive.

As for jobs being shunned; we've never been more simplified and homogenized than now, and that still didn't stop PCT being so good for ultimate. As far as I'm concerned, balance issues are not a reason for disregarding some jobs being more simple or more complex than others (personally, I'd rather all jobs have a "simple" rotation that does like 80-90% of the output of an "optimized" rotation, similar to ForsakenRoe in that regard, so that all jobs can be both "simple" and "complex".)

I just don't like how Beastmaster is presented so far. Sure, sure, we don't know everything about it. But I feel underwhelmed by it

I personally don't see what makes it so limited. Is it the potencies? Then tune the potencies down, and then give the beastmaster a button to raise those potencies back up like its Basic Instinct if they are solo or the only player in a party alive.

Its kind of weird on the catching system as the way they present it is just bizarre. As we have leves where yes you are supposed to weaken a monster and then use an emote or item to pacify it and that would qualify as enough to complete the leve. Meanwhile here we have the beastmaster weakning the enemy, using an ability to catch, and then reducing its health down to zero anyway.

Maybe its just a feature that hasn't been shown, but I think you should be able to name the pets, like you do for starting chocobo. Without it, there is a missed opportunity for personalization for the beastmaster.

I feel making the pets not have a health bar, like how demi-bahamut or carbuncle don't, actually takes away from player investment in their own pets. Like give the beastmaster a tank pet, change the beastmaster from the dps role to the tank role.

The fact that beastmaster is limited just means there is less content for the job to actually do. Like it seems backwards for the company to put all this work into side content that can be done, and then not let a new job interact with the majority of that content.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

I personally don't see what makes it so limited.

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So this is my personal take on it, but to me what I believe is seen as the necessity to making Limited Jobs, Limited, is the nature of their progression, or lack of thereof.

You see, the nature of combat in this game is that you are expected to have certain skills at certain levels, and those skills will give you the cumulative power for each level bracket, a SMN at level 70 is expected to do so much damage because it is expected to have Akh Morn at that level, and if for whatever reason the SMN couldn't use Akh Morn(which is possible to not have it unlocked at all, which is why so many people stress the need of doing your Job quests), then it is going to rather dramatically reduce their power output, which makes it as a DPS unable to perform its role.

The nature of BLU, means that you can reach level 80 with a singular spell learned, the one that is forced upon you to start at all, the Job has no progression, any spell could be your second spell, which would make it very easy to find a BLU who is incapable of performing its basic role, this isn't an error, this is by design, the Job fantasy around Blue Mage exists to demand you to go do funky shit, to go out of your way, to get your spells, you can get them at any order, you can select any number of them for you active spellbook regardless of how well they work together.

This lack of natural progression, is what I believe is the reason behind the decision to making them limited, the fact you could get a BLU so bad in a party that the Tank is out-damaging them with autos, everything else, the funky things they can do like instakill effects, spreading every status your heart desires, the sheer power behind them, is the carrot on the stick to attempt to make them appealing despite the limitations.

And I need to stress, to just give BLU a natural progression, for spells to manifest out of thin air, for them to be handed to you through story quests, would destroy what makes Blue Mage into itself, it's the nature of the Job to function the way it does.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

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This is actually exactly why BLU is a limited job, you hit the nail on the head. Yoshi struggled with the idea of adding BLU to the game for years because he couldn't think of a way to make it work here and preserve the core "skill hunting" aspect of the job while making it progress the same as all the others. The compromise was the limited job system.

In my opinion however, this system was a mistake. I would have rather they forced BLU players to progress learning their spells in order to do things such as use the duty finder but honestly? I'm not sure even THAT would be necessary. FFXI has blue mage and while other jobs occasionally have to say, buy spells to learn them BLU works completely fine there while hunting down it's own skills with or without help from other players which takes MUCH more work than just waltzing to the auction house and buying a scroll. In that game if a BLU joins a party and has no spells do you know what happens? They get kicked from the group. Same thing could easily happen here and it wouldn't even be remotely a problem. Would some players complain about this? Yeah, sure, definitely, but at a certain point we have to stop coddling and tell people to get over it and properly prepare for activities or people won't want to play with them.

Instead of this however they chose to completely remove BLU from regular content and gave it absurd training wheels and it's just... Bad. A joke. A mockery of what the job could be. Every time I think about limited jobs I'm just reminded of how miserable the design philosophy is around jobs in this game. They refuse to take any risk whatsoever, friction is not allowed and that's just boring.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

The problem with "optional" complexity is that if its optimal, then it ceases to be optional, as people WILL demand others do the optional rotation and come down on them if they don't. We already have people who lose their minds whenever someone else doesn't use certain skills (or in the case of healers, when they DO use certain ones instead of DPSing), this would just be more of the same.

Likewise with the complex versus simple jobs, if the complex one hits harder, people will only want to bring the complex one. Even now people will shun entire jobs for being seen as the "weaker" option.

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We quite literally lived in the era of "optional" complexity for two expansions and players of all skill levels were doing just fine.

Do you know why people nowadays get so annoyed with healers not DPSing? Exactly because they have been simplified to the point of being laughable. Because not DPSing nowadays means you're just doing nothing for 60-90% of your gameplay.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

So this is my personal take on it, but to me what I believe is seen as the necessity to making Limited Jobs, Limited, is the nature of their progression, or lack of thereof.

You see, the nature of combat in this game is that you are expected to have certain skills at certain levels, and those skills will give you the cumulative power for each level bracket, a SMN at level 70 is expected to do so much damage because it is expected to have Akh Morn at that level, and if for whatever reason the SMN couldn't use Akh Morn(which is possible to not have it unlocked at all, which is why so many people stress the need of doing your Job quests), then it is going to rather dramatically reduce their power output, which makes it as a DPS unable to perform its role.

The nature of BLU, means that you can reach level 80 with a singular spell learned, the one that is forced upon you to start at all, the Job has no progression, any spell could be your second spell, which would make it very easy to find a BLU who is incapable of performing its basic role, this isn't an error, this is by design, the Job fantasy around Blue Mage exists to demand you to go do funky shit, to go out of your way, to get your spells, you can get them at any order, you can select any number of them for you active spellbook regardless of how well they work together.

This lack of natural progression, is what I believe is the reason behind the decision to making them limited, the fact you could get a BLU so bad in a party that the Tank is out-damaging them with autos, everything else, the funky things they can do like instakill effects, spreading every status your heart desires, the sheer power behind them, is the carrot on the stick to attempt to make them appealing despite the limitations.

And I need to stress, to just give BLU a natural progression, for spells to manifest out of thin air, for them to be handed to you through story quests, would destroy what makes Blue Mage into itself, it's the nature of the Job to function the way it does.

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Okay, but counter argument, for regular starting jobs your not forced to get a job stone, nor are you really forced you to equip one, and the only times it seems the game will do that to player is stuff like pvp. Like you know those stories about somehow a level 70 or 90 or 100 gladiator just shows up in your party and its just that the player hasn't unlocked the job advancement yet for paladin and equipped that stone? That happens. I think the argument for natural progression doesn't make sense when applied to limited, when there is that glaring issue with starting jobs.

I could hypothetically go level up a new character that is a level 100 rogue and show-up in your 7.3 necron trial, no in this scenario, I don't have the ninja job stone.

EDIT: Also almost forgot, job quests are not fully mandatory. So in that same scenario of being a level 100 rogue, I would also be missing rogue job skills Throwing Knife and Mug. Which when put like that sounds an awful lot like a blue mage who only has water cannon.

And that since Hide and Trick Attack are literally worthless in trials and dungeons for a Rogue, the job has a grand total of 5 skills it can use, its 1-2-3 combo, its shade shift, and its death blossom. Its actually the lowest of the jobs with potential skills while showing up without natural progression. The second lowest is Lancer at 6 skills if it doesn't do its job quests.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

The nature of BLU, means that you can reach level 80 with a singular spell learned, the one that is forced upon you to start at all, the Job has no progression, any spell could be your second spell, which would make it very easy to find a BLU who is incapable of performing its basic role, this isn't an error, this is by design, the Job fantasy around Blue Mage exists to demand you to go do funky shit, to go out of your way, to get your spells, you can get them at any order, you can select any number of them for you active spellbook regardless of how well they work together.

This lack of natural progression, is what I believe is the reason behind the decision to making them limited, the fact you could get a BLU so bad in a party that the Tank is out-damaging them with autos, everything else, the funky things they can do like instakill effects, spreading every status your heart desires, the sheer power behind them, is the carrot on the stick to attempt to make them appealing despite the limitations.

And I need to stress, to just give BLU a natural progression, for spells to manifest out of thin air, for them to be handed to you through story quests, would destroy what makes Blue Mage into itself, it's the nature of the Job to function the way it does.

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This again...

Yoshi-P mentioned this in an interview, the problem of 'a BLU might join a party to raid, but have no spells learned'. If it was such a problem, why design the possibility into the Job? They acknolewdged a potential problem, and then made the problem possible to run into.

A lot of enemies are resistant to 'every status your heart desires', and a lot of bosses are straight up immune to instakill effects, with seemingly no pattern as to which are vs are not.

Spells already DO manifest out of thin air, or are handed to you via story quests, with BLU. They're just obscured behind the additional layer of 'receive totem from vendor, use it in your inventory to learn spell'. Do you think that Breath of Magic is somehow vastly different, because you learn it from a totem unlocked at level 80, rather than directly 'because you hit level 80'? Or how about the 'you learned X number of spells, here's a totem that teaches you one more'? Like, they gave us a totem for White Wind, despite White Wind being in ARR content (Enkidu, from Gilgamesh fight #2)

Let me tell you what I think 'makes BLU, BLU'. EVERY FF game I've played that has BLU in it (Which is admittedly not all of them, but is most of them), I've had a core kit of spells, sometimes it varies in number, but it's never been more than 32. When I go into a fight, in any of those previous games, I do not need to pick a 'loadout', I take every spell that I've learned thus far into the battle. In EVERY FF game I've played, I can use a BLU in my team and complete the story, up to and including the final boss. In EVERY FF game I've played, the METHOD by which spells are learned, is often different. FF5 you have to be hit with the spell and survive it, FF6/FF7 you have to see it and survive the battle, FF8 you use specific items (I guess this is where the Totems idea came from), FF9 you eat specific enemies, FF10 you use Lancet on specific enemies, FFTA/TA2 you get hit by the spell and survive it. It's only in FF11, and now FF14, that you needed to make a 'loadout', so I dunno why they stuck so rigidly to that 'version' of BLU. Plus, even in FF11, you could 'play through the whole story' as BLU, so limiting BLU and preventing it from completing MSQ in FF14, is an FF14-only decision. Now who's 'destroying what makes BLU into itself'?

'What makes BLU, a BLU', is very simple IMO. It learns spells from enemies, and uses those learned spells in combat. That's all. So, there's absolutely ways they could have made BLU a 'real job', while preserving some of its wackiness for when it's doing Masked Carnivale, soloing content or even doing BLU-only Raids. But now that we have this version of BLU, the well is poisoned, and people have convinced themselves that 'the only way SE could have done BLU, is this way'

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Originally Posted by Selsix

This is actually exactly why BLU is a limited job, you hit the nail on the head. Yoshi struggled with the idea of adding BLU to the game for years because he couldn't think of a way to make it work here and preserve the core "skill hunting" aspect of the job while making it progress the same as all the others. The compromise was the limited job system.

In my opinion however, this system was a mistake. I would have rather they forced BLU players to progress learning their spells in order to do things such as use the duty finder but honestly? I'm not sure even THAT would be necessary. FFXI has blue mage and while other jobs occasionally have to say, buy spells to learn them BLU works completely fine there while hunting down it's own skills with or without help from other players which takes MUCH more work than just waltzing to the auction house and buying a scroll. In that game if a BLU joins a party and has no spells do you know what happens? They get kicked from the group. Same thing could easily happen here and it wouldn't even be remotely a problem. Would some players complain about this? Yeah, sure, definitely, but at a certain point we have to stop coddling and tell people to get over it and properly prepare for activities or people won't want to play with them.

Instead of this however they chose to completely remove BLU from regular content and gave it absurd training wheels and it's just... Bad. A joke. A mockery of what the job could be. Every time I think about limited jobs I'm just reminded of how miserable the design philosophy is around jobs in this game. They refuse to take any risk whatsoever, friction is not allowed and that's just boring.

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Yeh. I keep thinking about how you could learn, via Job Quests/Levelling, a core kit of... Let's say 24 actions. You'd then be able to go out, and hunt for spells from enemies, which would have the same function as those 'base kit' spells. For example, from the level 10 Job quest, you learn... Azuro's Razing Gaze, a basic Cone-shaped attack. You'd be able to go out and learn Ink Jet, or The Look, or Flamethrower, or Northerlies, or Protean Wave, or Kaltstrahl, or Aqua Breath (I'm probably missing a couple others) and they'd do the same thing: basic Cone-shaped attack. You'd even be able to go and learn those actions, BEFORE you get the 'basic' version from the Job Quest, so you can feel like you've beaten the devs by sequence-breaking

Here's an example of how a rework to LV5 Death, one of the reasons that 'BLU is too OP to be a real Job!', could work to allow BLU to be OP in older content (as it is now) and still able to participate in current content:

It's Showtime! - Trait
When in a party comprised entirely of Blue Mages (including a party of just yourself), It's Showtime!
While It's Showtime, certain actions are enhanced to incredible levels of power.

LV5 Death - 120s CD - Spell - 500MP - 6y Radius, 30y Range
Deals 1200p damage to enemy, and 50% less to all enemies near it.
It's Showtime!: Instantly kills all targets hit by the attack, if their level is a multiple of 5. Has no effect on enemies within 5 levels of your own.

With that example, you can still instant-kill everything you currently can. However, there's some improvements to its functionality. You'd be able to instantkill anything, and I mean anything, so long as you're in a party entirely made up of BLU, or are soloing (ie going into old content Unsync'd). There's no accuracy check on the insta-kill in this example, because it's looking at 'if the enemy is hit by the damage', so it's far more reliably going to trigger. Because of the 'within 5 levels' stipulation, you still can never use it to cheese something that forces a level sync like Eureka/Bozja, or Ultimates, or any current expansion endgame content. Which is the same list of excluded content as now, because BLU currently can't even enter current expansion endgame content, or Eureka, or Ultimates

Tell you what, I'll do one for White Wind too:

White Wind - 300s Recast - Spell - 3000MP - 10y Radius
Restores HP to self and allies, equal to the caster's current HP.
This action's recast timer is separate from other actions, and is not affected by stats or gear.
It's Showtime!: Recast timer reduced to 2.5s

Now you can use White Wind, in current content, and it's (sort of) balanced by having a 5min CD