Dawntrail's MSQ story is a disaster and waste of potential. [full spoilers]

Well here's some MSQ spoilers:

Are we really meant to actually believe that Bakool Ja Ja's arrogance, spoken superiority complex, and the like from the start is because he "wants the mass breedings of 2 heads to end"?! All of that, especially after being disowned and being dripfed these ideas and ideals by the elector. What an absolutely missed opportunity to have a moment for Alphinaud/Alisaie and the WOL draw parallels between Bakool Ja Ja and Vauthry by being drip fed this idea of superiority from others, rather than Bakool Ja Ja having ideas and dreams of what he actually wants. Oh sure we know what he wants with the story given to us, but it doesn't add up and match up at all. There could've been an arc for Bakool Ja Ja to learn ON SCREEN with learning to think for himself. Let the party and Bakool Ja Ja see the mass breeding eggs going on in an area where Bakool Ja Ja was originally "forbidden from going" or something that he blindly went along with since he wasn't thinking for himself.

But no. Instead we're supposed to believe that his superiority complex and active glee and delight in his underhanded tricks were for some morally righteous reasons after a few waterworks and now everythings all hunky dory?

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Originally Posted by Singularity

The game spends 90% of the story pushing a point of understanding and acceptance and preservation of other cultures, and then when the time comes to test that principle regarding a culture that is outside the relatively "normal" ones you've met earlier, railroads you into siding with the argument that you should wipe out all of these people because they're "not natural".

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100% agreed. It was such a whiplash to see Wuk Lamat and the Scions preaching cultural acceptance but once we reach Sol 9 they're all suddenly hesitant to.

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Originally Posted by Manamaru

Well here's some MSQ spoilers:

Are we really meant to actually believe that Bakool Ja Ja's arrogance, spoken superiority complex, and the like from the start is because he "wants the mass breedings of 2 heads to end"?! All of that, especially after being disowned and being dripfed these ideas and ideals by the elector. What an absolutely missed opportunity to have a moment for Alphinaud/Alisaie and the WOL draw parallels between Bakool Ja Ja and Vauthry by being drip fed this idea of superiority from others, rather than Bakool Ja Ja having ideas and dreams of what he actually wants. Oh sure we know what he wants with the story given to us, but it doesn't add up and match up at all. There could've been an arc for Bakool Ja Ja to learn ON SCREEN with learning to think for himself. Let the party and Bakool Ja Ja see the mass breeding eggs going on in an area where Bakool Ja Ja was originally "forbidden from going" or something that he blindly went along with since he wasn't thinking for himself.

But no. Instead we're supposed to believe that his superiority complex and active glee and delight in his underhanded tricks were for some morally righteous reasons after a few waterworks and now everythings all hunky dory?

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I got a different impression from Bakool Ja Ja. It seems that he acted arrogant and abrasive because of his father's conditioning and being seen as the hope of the Mamool Ja. He was raised to feel that he was superior. But at the same time he also at some point learned about the sacrifices that culminated in him. Because of that he feels that he has the responsibility to really be the superior specimen so that his dead infant siblings did not die for no reason.

I don't think he started out wanting the eugenics to end because he probably saw it as inevitable, as part of the natural order. I agree though that the switch from him being superior and arrogant to pleading with us to end the eugenics program is so sudden and frankly almost nonsensical. The writers wanted to write a bully character with a traumatic backstory but don't seem to know how to build up to that switch.

I also agree that it's weird that everything's suddenly A-OK with him after the cutscenes, as if he didn't just unleash a catastrophic threat just two levels ago.

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Originally Posted by Singularity

Just to add my own frustration regarding the last zone in particular. I have never at any point in the story all the way back to ARR disagreed more with the actions the game makes my character take. You arrive in the Golden City, and within five minutes you're approached by Cahciua, requesting that you erase all of the Endless because she thinks their existence is "wrong".

Internally, my response was "Who the hell are you to decide that for everyone here?", and if you tell her no (or to be more specific "There has to be another way!"), the game hand-waves your objection away with one or two lines of dialogue and then puts you back at the "What will you say?" screen with the "no" option removed. At that point I just skipped the rest of the cutscene, because I'm not going to give the writer the satisfaction of saying "I will do as you ask" like I'm OK with this plan in the slightest. That felt patronising as hell.

The game spends 90% of the story pushing a point of understanding and acceptance and preservation of other cultures, and then when the time comes to test that principle regarding a culture that is outside the relatively "normal" ones you've met earlier, railroads you into siding with the argument that you should wipe out all of these people because they're "not natural".



Side note: I'm aware that these people will most likely die after we stop Sphene anyway, and I do agree that she should be stopped. That doesn't mean I'm willing to execute them all here and now without even trying to find an alternative solution (and considering Cahciua's opinion of the Endless I doubt she tried very hard when she says there isn't one). Isn't killing one people to save another exactly what Sphene wants to do?

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This actually bothered me about the story more than everything else combined. Like, our merry group of war criminals readily dismisses the Endless as lifeless facsimiles and constructs recreated from dead peoples memories... but literally everything we experience while talking with them seems to contradict this? They are self aware, capable of feeling, decision making, planning and forming memories, and as far as I could tell nothing was brought up to imply that they aren't mentally the same as any living person. Did I miss something?

The writing was set up to force us into an "us or them" situation, which is... hamfisted, but fine. But the happy-happy heroic celebration afterwards did not at all mirror my mood when the credits were rolling. Like what the hell? We may have just committed genocide, at least feel bad about it for more than a few minutes?

I'm seriously not sure if I missed something important, because as is there is a very easy parallel to be drawn between our heroes and one of our previous major villains.

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Originally Posted by Singularity

Just to add my own frustration regarding the last zone in particular. I have never at any point in the story all the way back to ARR disagreed more with the actions the game makes my character take. You arrive in the Golden City, and within five minutes you're approached by Cahciua, requesting that you erase all of the Endless because she thinks their existence is "wrong".

Internally, my response was "Who the hell are you to decide that for everyone here?", and if you tell her no (or to be more specific "There has to be another way!"), the game hand-waves your objection away with one or two lines of dialogue and then puts you back at the "What will you say?" screen with the "no" option removed. At that point I just skipped the rest of the cutscene, because I'm not going to give the writer the satisfaction of saying "I will do as you ask" like I'm OK with this plan in the slightest. That felt patronising as hell.

The game spends 90% of the story pushing a point of understanding and acceptance and preservation of other cultures, and then when the time comes to test that principle regarding a culture that is outside the relatively "normal" ones you've met earlier, railroads you into siding with the argument that you should wipe out all of these people because they're "not natural".



Side note: I'm aware that these people will most likely die after we stop Sphene anyway, and I do agree that she should be stopped. That doesn't mean I'm willing to execute them all here and now without even trying to find an alternative solution (and considering Cahciua's opinion of the Endless I doubt she tried very hard when she says there isn't one). Isn't killing one people to save another exactly what Sphene wants to do?

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Absolutely.

This is around when myself and my partner starting hitting skip on everything. It felt gross and evil. We just nod and go along with a genocide without questioning it.
It felt pretty hateful. After all that preaching of acceptance and learning, they sure as hell didn't extend a fraction that same grace to the Alexandrians. Sure, we ask them questions and talk with them knowing full well we plan on erasing them, their friends, and their family from existence.

Not saying that it could have worked out at all, but our characters didn't even attempt to search for a solution.

Also the last zone is awful. It was so wonderful and magical and stripped away to nothing as a constant reminder that our WoL followed a stupid cat to kill a bunch of sentient, happy beings.

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

I got a different impression from Bakool Ja Ja. It seems that he acted arrogant and abrasive because of his father's conditioning and being seen as the hope of the Mamool Ja. He was raised to feel that he was superior. But at the same time he also at some point learned about the sacrifices that culminated in him. Because of that he feels that he has the responsibility to really be the superior specimen so that his dead infant siblings did not die for no reason.

I don't think he started out wanting the eugenics to end because he probably saw it as inevitable, as part of the natural order. I agree though that the switch from him being superior and arrogant to pleading with us to end the eugenics program is so sudden and frankly almost nonsensical. The writers wanted to write a bully character with a traumatic backstory but don't seem to know how to build up to that switch.

I also agree that it's weird that everything's suddenly A-OK with him after the cutscenes, as if he didn't just unleash a catastrophic threat just two levels ago.

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Yeah, I was actually quite fine with his backstory and to an extent I feel it even justifies his sudden change of heart and accepting our help. As hilarious as it is I find his character one of the better written ones so far after finishing third zone. I do however completely agree not having a single word mentioned so far of his unleashing a continent level threat to upend the contest and being wholly unpunished for it is sad.

I personally absolutly love the story so far I love Wuk Lamat she is dumb and cute and dungeons and the trials and the music my favourite expension since Shadowbringer

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

This actually bothered me about the story more than everything else combined. Like, our merry group of war criminals readily dismisses the Endless as lifeless facsimiles and constructs recreated from dead peoples memories... but literally everything we experience while talking with them seems to contradict this? They are self aware, capable of feeling, decision making, planning and forming memories, and as far as I could tell nothing was brought up to imply that they aren't mentally the same as any living person. Did I miss something?

The writing was set up to force us into an "us or them" situation, which is... hamfisted, but fine. But the happy-happy heroic celebration afterwards did not at all mirror my mood when the credits were rolling. Like what the hell? We may have just committed genocide, at least feel bad about it for more than a few minutes?

I'm seriously not sure if I missed something important, because as is there is a very easy parallel to be drawn between our heroes and one of our previous major villains.

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Agreed! I'm not against the idea that the Endless HAVE to die for the good of the star and all its reflections, but why is it not played up to be as tragic and messed up as it truly is? These are obviously sentient beings able to experience emotions and create memories, not just some crazy computer simulations. Why is it that when we kill them everyone just frowns and moves on to the next and then the ending has the gall to play that loud-ass harpy Disney music as if we didn't just erase thousands, potentially hundreds of thousands, of living beings in order to save the world? Nah, couldn't have "sacrificing for the greater good" as a theme in our expansion about mentoring a country's ruler. That is way too scary and complex for this writing team.

Also, screw Cahciua. She was annoying, her robot form took away any tension at a part of the MSQ that needed it, lied to her son (that she ditched when he was a child) that she was alive, and her plan sucks and she never acknowledges that it sucks. Another character who was obviously written to be overly likeable but just comes across as disingenuous and emotionally manipulative.

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Originally Posted by SirShady

Also, screw Cahciua. She was annoying, her robot form took away any tension at a part of the MSQ that needed it, lied to her son (that she ditched when he was a child) that she was alive, and her plan sucks and she never acknowledges that it sucks. Another character who was obviously written to be overly likeable but just comes across as disingenuous and emotionally manipulative.

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Yes but her name is a play on Captcha and she's a robot hahahahahahaha aren't you amused by how witty and silly it is, hahahahahaha

I feel like the second half of Dawntrail single handedly carries the entire expansion by itself. Like, really, as someone who is very into Buddhism and the idea of samsara/reincarnation/life cycle, I kinda dig and am very into the latter part of the expansion. That being said, the first half of the expansion is kinda bland and mid, as the op said, a waste potential.

On Wuk Lamat, I find her to be quite, idk, too innocent and loud, like very little character growth and so on. She has her moments here and there, but overall, she's just not there yet.

tldr: The latter part goes hard, but the first half is kinda hit and miss