I dislike him because he's presented inconsistently, and the way he's written in some parts is at odds with others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassar
First impressions matter, and his early interactions with Varis show him to be cruel and manipulative, basically abusive to Varis, with the implication that this how "Grandfather Solus" has treated him all his life. (It had the seeds of sending Varis off in a more sympathetic direction, together with what unknown secret plans we thought he might have had at the time of the parley and the old plot thread of the Warring Triad storyline suggesting we might become allies with him in future, but the writers tossed it all aside to make him a total villain who wants to use Black Rose for the sake of it.)
Then, as I outlined earlier, most of Shadowbringers gave you reasons to not trust him, hinted at his involvement in so many atrocities, then suddenly throwing the "actually you were friends once" thing at me – which felt so jarring exactly because I couldn't picture my character ever having been willing friends with someone who was so casually cruel and ruthless.
His sudden appearance at the Seat of Sacrifice should have been the last of him. It was a perfect send-off. If they wanted to tie up loose ends of what happened to the real Hythlodaeus, my guess/headcanon at the time was that G'raha has his soul, which I think would have rounded things off nicely.
Instead we got first the Tales From the Shadows, which delved into his mindset a bit more but also reframed the whole Convocation as a comedy, and then Endwalker itself was complicated. (Somewhere around here I had resigned myself to the mindset that I will need to at least attempt to like Emet if he gets mentioned again, because the writers are dead set on writing from the perspective that you like him.)
The first thing with Endwalker was that it made Emet inherently less "tragic" by reframing the whole situation. Where the language had previously pointed to people "giving up their life energies" to form Zodiark, and the Ascians obsessed with the impossible prospect of reviving what was already dead and gone and beyond reclaiming, they were now genuinely working to rescue people who could be rescued (with that little forever-glossed-over detail of whether the whole plan involved replacing willing souls with unwilling ones). Again it seems to be intended to make you think Emet is a good person, at least from the world as he experiences it, but the ambiguity – to say the least! – of how it affects people around him still makes it hard to accept that reframing.
And then we have Elpis, where we really have to put aside all his future misdeeds and like him there if he's likeable, but... meh. He's just non-stop prickly and unlikeable, even if he does get some funny remarks in sometimes, and I still can't picture him being friends with my character or even "Azem as an independent character" from what little we know of them. Hyth and Azem and maybe Venat as a group, sure, but it sounds like they're all bent on making Emet's life hell and it's not clear what they actually get out of each other as reciprocal friends.
And finally Ultima Thule where he's this messy tangle of behaving like his Elpis personality but also still insisting that all the things he did in his life were the right things to do, while also being in "we're back to being friends now" mode and he gets a happy ending that is... well, in isolation and in the context of "your old friend who has suffered for years doing what he thought was right", a very nice send-off and I liked that he and Hyth finally got what they always wanted: finish their life's purpose and depart the world together by choice. BUT, once again, that immediate niceness jars with the wider picture of what the game showed me of him, particularly the element of him never showing regret for what he did in his long time as an Ascian.
Showing is a key point, I think. We got told a lot that he is (or was) actually a good and noble soul in harsh circumstances, but we never really saw it.
I still find it problematic that (particularly in Shadowbringers) the sympathy card was thrown in at the end, inbetween his story-long untrustworthiness and outright trying to kill you all. It just feels forced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightamethyst
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09-13-2023, 03:35 PMIscah
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09-13-2023, 08:08 PMMortex
I do think emet would work way more if he had doubts and being troubled over killing so many people and effectively doing the same thing too other worlds as has happened with the ancients. Like he knows what he does is utterly vile and evil but it’s the only way for zoodiarc too bring back all his friends and people he cared about. His smug and holier than thou attitude plus his quote “I do not consider you to be truly alive. Ergo, I will not be guilty of murder if I kill you.” is the most villain thing you can do and then thing people feel bad about him. Like they had even the chance too make him light hearted and not a tsundere in Elpis and explain his shitty ass behavior in the future with this. Like from mildly grumpy too mega grumpy isn’t a good character arc.
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09-13-2023, 09:06 PMClereticI've seen a lot of people say he actually does have that conflict, but I haven't really seen a lot of evidence for it. Everything I have seen says that his rhetoric about the sundered people didn't change across the ages; he describes them with the exact same language both shortly after the event, and when he's posing as Solus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortex
If that was really the intention, they could've used driving that point home much harder. But it does hit a bit of a struggle point; because of his overall purpose within the story, the writers wouldn't want him to seem too regretful or hesitant. They ultimately want him always thinking he was in the right, otherwise that overall angle of 'he made a hard decision in a situation where there were no good answers, but he stands by it and that by nature puts him against you' doesn't quite land. -
09-14-2023, 12:54 AMCassar
Always interesting to read different perspectives on Emet, even if it was already talked about many times in the past and you guys are probably already tired of repeating yourselves.
I can definitely see it being annoying to have to deal with the story assuming you like a character when in reality you don't. I know a lot of people have this kind of issue with Zenos too and it was even mentioned in a QnA session I believe - when they were thinking of how to make the main character react to the mention of Zenos in 6.4.
I think everything you said is valid, there's not much that I can add or counter argue as it all comes down to opinion. As I said previously, it's just very unfortunate that this ended up happening with this character.
What I can say is what I personally feel, which is the fact that I never really cared too much about the intricacies of his character. I knew his purpose and motives, I put myself in his shoes and I thought "Damn, I probably would do the same thing". And in the end that's really all I need to appreciate the character.
When it comes to personality, I think I subconsciously cast that aside as a factor. Going back to the Asahi example: absolutely despicable personality, but I still like the character.
But of course, as always, to each their own.
Either way, still good to see different perspectives and here's hoping whoever's the next big evil man is enjoyable for everyone :D . -
09-14-2023, 08:59 AMClereticIn a character focused story, how much you like the character is invariably going to factor in to if that character's story is sympathetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassar
Here's the thing about bringing in Asahi as a comparison: you're not supposed to like him. He's an absolutely detestable, loathsome and pathetic guy, and is absolutely designed to be, there's not a sympathetic bone in his body. He's designed for one purpose, and that purpose is 'make you want to give him a swirlie'; you not liking him is the character working as intended, and his intention is very simple. Hell, that purpose comes back when Amon takes his body; the fact he's got Asahi's body shortcuts how we're supposed to feel about him, you immediately kick off with the intended response of thinking this guy's kind of a dolt, a response that they build on in interesting ways.
Emet's a much more complex situation, because there's a few layers going on. But the ones relevant to this for me: he's a character who asks for sympathy to some degree, but has the personality and demeanor of some of the worst people I've met in my life. On a logical level I can engage with the facts of his story and recognize that those are probably sympathetic and land at one of the intended responses of 'I can get why someone would get themselves into this position, but I don't feel I would do that'. But Emet's personality is an undismissable element: he's too strong a personality, too impossible to divorce from his own story. And for me, and several others that frequently get drowned out in greater discussion, that personality does more to hurt his point than help it, both for directly related reasons of 'this person doesn't seem like he's trustworthy or genuine' and more unrelated reasons of 'I don't like this guy, so I'm less inclined to like his point'. -
09-14-2023, 11:08 AMLyth
The inconsistency that people have noted in Emet's writing results from flanderization. His original story arc from late Stormblood through to the end of the 5.0 MSQ was enjoyable, and he was an interesting villain. He's ultimately an Ardyn expy, but a well executed one.
What him uniquely popular was Azem, and the last minute revelation that we were secretly friends all along from another life. Couple that with the transition from 'You will not inherit our legacy' to 'Fine, you can inherit our legacy' and you have a strong audience hook.
The end result of this popularity surge was that the Tales of the Shadows short stories and Endwalker flanderized him from ruthless psychopath to facepalming softy. It's a bit like trying to redeem Kefka or Sephiroth and turn them into your buddies at the end of their respective stories. It would make for a cute AU spin-off manga idea, but trying to actually work it into story canon makes for a bit of whiplash. I think that's what people take issue with in his writing.
It's perfectly fine for a villain to just be a villain. -
09-14-2023, 12:29 PMSannaR
Emet for me is the immortal being who has either written off mortals or almost has done so until they meet a PoV character or a group. Who may or may not have tried or thought of ending themselves yet is unable to pull the trigger themselves due to feeling some sense of honor or duty. Dracula at the start of the Castlevania series and Marius de Romanus from Anne Rice's The Vampire Chronicles pre Queen of the Damned. Spoilers for The Vampire Lestat and I guess the TV series if it ever gets that far plot wise or goes this route but Marius ends up becoming the care taker of the 1st two Vampires where if one is able to shove the 1st Vampire out into to the sun it ends up acting as a suicide and countless murders as anyone who isn't lucky or really stupid old ends up turning to ash. As that's what happened the last time someone pulled placing two statuesque beings into an area that would become covered in sunlight once daytime came about. Along with a guy who might have finally gotten to the acceptance stage of grief.
As he looks and reads as a person who thinks and feels as though they are doing most of the heavy lifting when it comes to the rejoinings. Lahabreha really let his tainted by his wife part of him go wild and Elidibus only seemed to do things if there looked to be an imbalance. He purposely goads the Scions into disliking him because he knows how they are and how the WoL is. Fandaniel proves to us that if Emet was able to allow himself to be vulnerable in front of people that they would have questioned why he wanted to stop doing the rejoinings. Why he needed our help to carry his burden.
He lies mostly to himself because he feels so bound by the plan, and his duty that it feels wrong to even just think of stopping. It feels shameful to want to give up on the rejoinings to accept that even if they did succeed in rejoining every shard most of the people they knew were gone. Same with most of the places they loved or cared about. That only those inside of Zodiark would still be who they were. Sort of as I feel even Hythlodaeus wouldn't 100% be the exact same person he was before becoming apart of Zodiark.
Emet is socially awkward and tends to be prickly again due to wanting to keep people out. He doesn't enjoy people seeing underneath the mask he wears on the outside. Nor does he enjoy at all having people see him being weak or vulnerable. So much so he would rather have people see him as a unkind, all business type. Yet we know from how Hythlodaeus and Venat tease him that is all a front. -
09-14-2023, 03:34 PMBrightamethystThat depends entirely on whether you actually like the whole "the WoL is Azem reborn" thing, which many people do NOT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
Personally, I almost laughed out loud at the audacity of the writing team when they pulled the "actually you're the secret extra special SUPER chosen one!" card, and spent most of EW unable to take anything seriously. -
09-14-2023, 05:29 PMTurnintinoI tend to resign myself to the whole "chosen one" narrative, since it's often par for the course in any remotely linear RPG (even if you aren't innately super ultra extra special, the player character is still often saddled with immense responsibility or even authority; they'll never get to be "just another adventurer"), and of course I wouldn't want to write that off because it obviously does well to heighten the stakes in any context where your character is the "main" character. And power fantasies like that, in general, are very broadly appealing. But man... I sure rolled my eyes at the Azem revelation lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightamethyst
In the same way that I took issue with the revelation that much of the fauna we've seen since the game's introduction are all or mostly descendants of Ancient creations... There's just something about things like that that both make the world feel smaller and also diminish its (and its characters) identities in my mind. It just feels so reductive and unimaginative.
I've already long distinguished my character from the WoL who we play in the MSQ, because of how simultaneously too-broad and too-limited their characterization is, how they interact with the narrative, etc. And I'm fine with that, I'm not really complaining; this isn't Pathfinder or Baldur's Gate or even Dragon Age (where at least you get to have the illusion of personality), that's not what we're here for. But indisputably Mary Sue-y elements like being Azem reincarnated -- for no other reason than that it ingratiates or at least elevates the WoL in the eyes of pivotal characters -- something like that makes the story, even on its own merits, less compelling to me. Especially when the WoL is already so painfully exceptional without it that it's practically inconsequential. And outside of the Ancient/Ascian stuff, it is (or has been) inconsequential, which is its one saving grace, while also making it that much more frustrating, imo.
But... c'est la vie, I guess! In light of its context, at least, I assume it won't play too much into future storylines. But it certainly chafed for a hot minute. -
09-14-2023, 11:13 PMClereticWhile for most of ARR I look at the game's story from a general perspective of trying to see where the writers coming from and trying to achieve, and sometimes they might not be making the best choices but are making understandable and workable ones, Azem is the one thing in the entire MSQ that I look at as an outright mistake that they shouldn't have done, down there with the 'reveal' in Heavensward Paladin. And perhaps the worst part is that it's a choice that's only a mistake for FFXIV. Turnininto is right, some level of 'chosen one' narrative is pretty standard for RPGs; I don't have to like it there either, but it's there, and often serves something of a purpose of why this character specifically is doing the cool stuff, or why you can do some resident game mechanic. That doesn't work for MMOs, of course, because you're not the only person in this world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightamethyst
Instead, MMOs often go for a subtype of 'chosen people', where instead of you being one special guy, you're one of a collection of people who get some sort of elevated status, usually getting access to some central gameplay conceit like respawns or something, while not necessarily being some great hero of destiny. That's a decent way to say that yes, you're special, but only in the same way everyone else who's playing is; you're more special than the random pedestrian walking down the street, but not more special than the other players on the team with you. That's a pretty solid angle, actually, because it gives you that necessary access to the game's functions and 'special-ness' to say that yes, you are allowed to do all this special stuff, but still leaves your achievements to be your achievements; you didn't slay the dragon because you're the destined dragon-slayer, you slew the dragon because you worked at it, and you're someone who's trained the skills of slaying dragons.
Suddenly turning around and going 'you're the one and only chosen special person, and this was always your destiny' in an MMO is a terrible idea. It invalidates everyone around you, declares all of them to basically just not be canon, and at the same time also takes away from your own accomplishments by implicitly saying 'oh yeah you were always going to do that stuff'. And on a more narrative perspective, they haven't really used Azem in a way that suggests they're anything but a way to declare us to be The Chosen One and connected to Emet-Selch; I'd call it a link to the Ancients as a whole, but they've never used it for that.