Rotations: Making them DIFFERENT

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Originally Posted by Post

I wish they'd just break some shit. Players will always figure out the best way to play whatever their given, and the only time they're ever in a rush to make adjustments is when there's actually an imbalance in performance, so it gets fixed during the expansion. Not when all the jobs in a single role feel equally boring.

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Players: 'AST is literally giving people RSI because it's burst window is so APM heavy'

SE: 'i sleep'

Players: 'A melee class is only 8% ahead of the ranged, instead of the allotted 10% they're meant to be (because they have melee privelige)'

SE: 'quick +10 potency on all main combo skills, and 50 on it's 2min burst skill'

SE: 'also, nerf RDM again'

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Originally Posted by Post

I wish they'd just break some shit. Players will always figure out the best way to play whatever their given, and the only time they're ever in a rush to make adjustments is when there's actually an imbalance in performance, so it gets fixed during the expansion. Not when all the jobs in a single role feel equally boring.

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The drive for balance has always been a fun-killer in multiplayer games. Developers need to simply accept that the cost of making things interesting is some amount of imbalance, but I'm dubious that is coming anytime soon with SE/CBU3, as they're seemingly focused on greater retention from the recent influx in new players (a group I'm part of, fwiw), whom at least SE seem to perceive as casually inclined rather than simply new and lacking in experience.

They seem to believe that the class fantasy is what pulls people to play certain jobs, or play at all really, and the primacy of that belief needs to die before they're likely to differentiate jobs mechanically beyond the same portable class fantasy.

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Originally Posted by TheDustyOne

There's a couple of candidates for button consolidation on current PLD I can think of;

1: Combine FoF and Req
Self explanatory, we're already double-weaving them as-is

2: Replace Goring with Req
Goring feels vestigial and boring, whereas Req begins a new phase in the rotation, they're already on the same timer and get used close together.

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Agreed with both. Goring is just stupid at this point, and Req and FoF being two different buttons makes no sense. I've even contemplated making Shield Bash upgrade to Goring under Req/FoF just to help trim button bloat (Shield Bash actually IS useful in Deep Dungeons and is some of that - rather elusive these days - RP/class fantasy flavor, so removing it would be sad), but Goring in particular is just "Why is this here?", and FoF/Req are always used together anyway, as is Req and Confetior, so combining Req with either of those would just...make sense. Also would help with that oddly short range that Req has for god only knows what reason.

[That said: I like Goring's animation WAY better than Royal Authority, which is probably my least favorite melee attack animation IN THE ENTIRE GAME. I'd much rather they use Goring's animation for Royal. Makes me think of the Armor Break Knight attacks from Final Fantasy Tactics.]

WHM made like current PLD would basically be Stone, Aero, Water (all instant cast GCDs that boost the potency of the next one if used in the correct order), Dia (Holy Spirit) or Holy (Holy Circle), Glare Glare Glare (Atonement), Presence of Mind (FoF/Req combined, say; what we want to do with PLD anyway), Ancient Holy, Quake, Tornado, Flood (same button pressed four times). Banish and something (Aqualung?) for AOE 1-2 combo. All spells are instant cast unless Dia/Holy is used outside of a combo. That would be WHM turned into PLD's rotation.

People would complain it plays too much like a Ranged Physical, and its healing would be gimped or it would wreck its DPS to use it, and a lot of people would find ways to mess it up. All healing other than maybe Cure 2 or 3 (whichever becomes our Clemency) would have to be converted to oGCD spells (Cure 2, Medica, Medica 2) which also have no MP cost. Why? Because all Tank defensive CDs are oGCDs and none have MP cost associated with them. If we're really doing a 1-to-1 comparison here. Other than the Clemency substitute. Only Dia, Holy, Ancient Holy/Quake/Tornado/Flood, and Cure 2 (or 3) under this model have MP costs.

[NO! DRK does not count! :p I know what you're thinking, and fine, if you want to have Divine Benison cost MP and refund it when it breaks, whatever. :p]

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

So, is there any lesson to be learned from PLD rotation changes for healers?

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In a way, yes.

PLD has changed to where you can place casted spells in rotations and not break the combos (casting Clemency won't break the 1-2-3 base combo), and likewise, one thing that's a really good idea is the rotational flexibility of HS. When you use 1-2-3, you have HS that you can use either in the -X slot that comes next OR -Y, -Z, -A (during the Atonement stack) OR the following -1 or -2. Or to write it as such, 1-2-3-_-_-_-_-(1)_-(2)_-3 you can move it flexibly anywhere at any of the _ spots, either using it after -3 and before Atonement, anywhere during Atonement, or after the following first two hits of the subsequent combo.

I think having a flexible healing system like that could work. So instead of doing the above (which is just PLD's rotation with WHM spell names), what might work better in practice is Stone-Aero-Water-3x Holy (or Glare, whatever) (as per one of my suggestions before, this would require making Holy work like Cure 3 where it can be cast at range OR centered on the caster, but that's not an issue since the tech exists already for that), where every Water cast grants you a free, instant-cast Cure/Medica spell of your choosing, and casting a heal this way generates a charge of Blood Lily. Next up, add something to PoM where it actually increases damage dealt by something (20%, say) and where you can spend the stacked Blood Lilies (suppose they stack to 3) on a chain of Miseries that ends with Afflatus Purgation (sorta like the pre-EW Paladin HS into Confetior chain). Aside from this, you can also cast any heal spell any time you want, obviously, but with the full cast time and MP cost. And you'd probably have some oGCD heals on the side like Asylum or Tetra still. All the damage spells can be instant casts like PLD, I guess, or 1.5 sec casts, I suppose?

Note that Aero is not a DoT here, it's just ranged Riot Blade. The 1-2-3 is just a different VFX and scaling combo potency (probably through some kind of "Aero Ready" and "Water Ready" and "Glare/Holy Ready" proc system). If that feels pointless, we could simply substitute that with 3x Glares like we...have now then 3x Dias as the Atonement ability. Doesn't matter too much.

That is, you have a 1-2-3 combo, a -4-4-4 Atonement-like stack, but instead of Holy Spirit being a damage spell, in this construction it's a free healing spell you can use that generates Blood Lily charges, that you then want to spend under Presence of Mind's boosted damage/burst phase and end with a Purgation. It's relatively simple, doesn't have a lot of overhead to juggle, but doesn't hard-lock you into a rotation so you have flexibility in the rotational healing as well as freedom to pause the rotation to just heal at any time, and provides healing and movement as part of the core rotation.

Something that works healing into the rotation like this and provides a burst phase is probably a good way to translate this into a Healer Job in a pseudo-ARPG combat system, since you have the redundancy of backup heals but also have the heals that can be flexibly moved through the rotation to meet needs (worst case scenario if no one needs healing, you spend that instant-cast, MP free "Lily" charge on a Regen or Medica 2)

That's my take, anyway.

I'm not sure this would translate to any/all Healers, and WHM may not even be the best vehicle for it (I will continue to insist that SGE makes the most sense for an ARPG-esque Healer Job), but I could see something like that working.

But I think the big thing that new PLD has that is a good lesson learned is how useful flexibility in the rotation is. Even if it's only a little. Because it provides something people always point out they want more of - choice. It's like SMN; for all the flack it gets, you can move the three Primals around and use them in whatever order you deem most beneficial. It may not seem like much, but it makes the rotation more dynamic/less static, gives the player some agency in how they want to play out their rotation, and allows an at least slightly meaningful choice on the part of the player.

Old PLD's rotation was muscle memory, as there was generally only one right way to do it, and the only mild choice was which set of Atonements you wanted to drop one of. New PLD gives you quite a bit more flexibility in HS use, which one could argue isn't much, but it's quite a lot compared to how static and immutable most FFXIV Job rotations are these days, or even to what old PLD was (the flexibility was mostly in the setup/opener, but you were largely locked into a consistent and static rotation after that point).

I highly disagree with Post - New PLD feels different to me from all the other three Tanks. It consistently confuses me that people think it isn't. If anything, it seems more distinct to me now since it's not stuck in a rigid rotation anymore. It's similar only from a 10,000 foot overview that would say "NIN plays just like WAR", but in terms of how it feels, it feels completely different to me to play, personally. So did old PLD, but the argument old PLD had this and new PLD does not seems wrong to me.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

SE: 'also, nerf RDM again'

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Agreed, and this is the weirdest thing since it kind of goes against their general "no nerfs" philosophy.

Granted, I suppose they technically just left RDM alone, but...it was already underperforming and they buffed its competition and not it, so, in relative terms, a nerf.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

[That said: I like Goring's animation WAY better than Royal Authority, which is probably my least favorite melee attack animation IN THE ENTIRE GAME. I'd much rather they use Goring's animation for Royal. Makes me think of the Armor Break Knight attacks from Final Fantasy Tactics.]

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It's one of my biggest problems with continually trimming and trimming skills from kits but without giving us any kind of 'skill glamour' system to offset the times when the visual "upgrade" du jour looks horrendous. As memeworthy as it was to kill Selene but allow Eos to wear her skin, I think I'm glad they at least left us the option.

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It's like SMN; for all the flack it gets, you can move the three Primals around and use them in whatever order you deem most beneficial. It may not seem like much, but it makes the rotation more dynamic/less static, gives the player some agency in how they want to play out their rotation, and allows an at least slightly meaningful choice on the part of the player.

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I guess I just find such a definition of 'choice' to be so constrained as to not merit the word. You have the 'choice' to do damage, or to do damage, or to do damage, but you can do those damages in any order that suits you! Yippee!

As much as a certain segment of the population claims that SMN 'finally feels like a Final Fantasy summoner', I find this to be wrong, and mostly based on surface-level assessments of aesthetics and visuals. (Speaking of visuals, why do we have to wait until endgame to summon an actual summon instead of a chicken nugget? Talk about failing to give new players little reasons keep playing...)

Pre-6.0 SMN, much derided as 'discount WoWlock' with its three pets where you actually wanted a different one for different situations, actually felt like a (small, scuffed) mirror of the versatility of the classic FF mechanic -- which as you recall, saw summons like Sylph and Kirin and Starlet for healing, Golem and Phantom and Carbuncle and Zoneseek for protection, Cerberus to buff your spellcasting, Doomtrain and Stray and Siren for enemy debuffing, and on and on and on.

Old SMN was a passable inheritor of the legacy in spirit, if not visuals. New SMN feels like a non-Final Fantasy-player's idea of what a Final Fantasy summoner does.

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Originally Posted by vetch

It's one of my biggest problems with continually trimming and trimming skills from kits but without giving us any kind of 'skill glamour' system to offset the times when the visual "upgrade" du jour looks horrendous. As memeworthy as it was to kill Selene but allow Eos to wear her skin, I think I'm glad they at least left us the option.

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Oh my god, yes. It's so sad to look at old videos and see these gorgeous animations that you never got to experience. I'm not sure I even disagree with Enochian being made a passive but the animation was super cool. Your idea of "action glam" would be a great reward those later job quests that otherwise don't give you very much in real time rewards.

As for SMN, I like some of the new visuals compared to what I've seen of the previous iterations', but I agree that the mechanics feel very surface given you are hitting the same buttons for all the elements. (Pressing the same button/keys obviously isn't the problem, but the effective difference between them being so minor is.) The Ruby/Topaz/Emerald prefixed abilities have so little difference between them that it should be seen as antithetical to the job design, much as making all AST cards the same defeats the core idea. :(

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Originally Posted by SenahPanipahr

The Ruby/Topaz/Emerald prefixed abilities have so little difference between them that it should be seen as antithetical to the job design, much as making all AST cards the same defeats the core idea. :(

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They have so little difference in fact, they're the exact same VFX as the base Ruin cast, up until the level they become 'Ruby/Topaz/Emerald Rite' instead of just 'Ruby Ruin III' etc. Like, iirc they don't even change the color to suit the element or anything (I can't be bothered to log in to double check that so I might be wrong'

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

They have so little difference in fact, they're the exact same VFX as the base Ruin cast, up until the level they become 'Ruby/Topaz/Emerald Rite' instead of just 'Ruby Ruin III' etc. Like, iirc they don't even change the color to suit the element or anything (I can't be bothered to log in to double check that so I might be wrong'

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I was logged in, so I went and checked. No, they didn't change a thing about them, they look exactly like Ruin III, they couldn't even be bothered to tint it red/green/yellow or something.

The weird thing is, it wouldn't even take a lot to have a balanced amount of differentiation between them (the initial summon damage is too insignificant in most contexts to matter, and on single target boss encounters all but irrelevant). This is just an example, but:

* Ruby could apply a DoT, representing burns.
* Topaz could increase physical vulnerability, or Blind.
* Emerald could apply CC, like Bind or reduce incoming damage via Heavy, or Slow. This would mimic the effect of buffets of wind. (If this were FFXI certain mobs would likely be immune, but I'm not sure if XIV has that beyond the boss immunity logic.)

To reiterate, I'm not proposing these as serious changes, but it's a bit grating that they didn't attempt to do something simple like this. Why are all elements of aether so bland?

On SMN, I don't mean the visuals at all, actually. You have Ifrit's long casts and required melee range, Titan's total freedom of movement, or Garuda's mostly freedom with a VERY long cast. SMN is a DPS, so doing damage is what it's going to be. Much as I'd love having Summons to deal with different situations, I don't want SMN being made a Limited Job to get that.

My point was not that.

My point was that you have a rotation, but it's not rigid. Contrast DRG with SMN. The former is absolutely rigid. Buttons are essentially pushed in the same order more or less no matter what because of how its rotation works and how rigidly it flows between attacks. On the opposite end, you have something like BRD, which has no rotation. It has a priority system based on what's procing, an underlying long rotation of the songs, and then a filler attack for when nothing on your higher priority system is up/proced. SMN kind of straddles the line between these extremes, having a rotation that has waypoints of rigidity (Bahamut/Phoenix), but between those points has flexibility in how you get there.

I get it's easy to miss that if all you see them as is "damage vs damage", but...it's a DPS Job. They ALL are "damage vs damage" when it comes to their core rotation. Vercure is not part of the core rotation. RDM's buttons are also all "damage vs damage". That's the way it works due to the rigid combat system FFXIV has, so that's not what I'm talking about.

I do also disagree with your "non-FF players notion of..."; Summoners have been distinct across the history of the games to the point that isn't really a valid point. Sometimes even within the same game. Contrasting Garnet and Eiko's Summoning in FF9, for example, the latter has an array of support Summons and several uncommon elemental attack summmons (like Wind and Holy) while the former has mostly just direct attack summons which are more powerful. The attunement/augment effect of EW SMN also is vaguely similar to FFXVI's Clive, though in a pure caster form rather than Clive's hybrid caster/fighter form.

...the point being, FFXIV's SMN is distinct, as all FF game SMNs are, but well within the realm of what a Summoner is.

Pre-EW's SMN was not. You focus only on the mechanics (and only vaguely at that; Phoenix in EW and ShB is vastly more different than Ifrit and Garuda and Titan were from each other in ShB, for example) but I think that's why you miss how EW's SMN feels more like a FF Summoner to people. Pre-EW's version had a heavy focus on DoT gameplay (something Summoners in FF games...don't have; I can't actually think of a single one offhand whose primary gameplay revolves around DoT maintenance), and the Egis didn't feel or work like any Summons in any of the games other than maybe the one Tactics with Vann and Penello in it. No other iteration of Summoner that I can think of had a permanent follow-pet. The closest might be FF12's, but they were temporary big attacks (costing a charged resource to use) and ended with mega-attacks, which the Egis did not.

I can't think of a single FF game where the Summoner played like pre-EW's SMN did.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I was logged in, so I went and checked. No, they didn't change a thing about them, they look exactly like Ruin III, they couldn't even be bothered to tint it red/green/yellow or something.

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I think this is what most pissed me off. I don't mind it having the same general animation as Ruin 1/2, but they didn't even give the little flying ball a red/green/yellow tint. you can't even tell if you're casting the elemental one or the normal one, visually.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

On SMN, I don't mean the visuals at all, actually. You have Ifrit's long casts and required melee range, Titan's total freedom of movement, or Garuda's mostly freedom with a VERY long cast. SMN is a DPS, so doing damage is what it's going to be. Much as I'd love having Summons to deal with different situations, I don't want SMN being made a Limited Job to get that.
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I get it's easy to miss that if all you see them as is "damage vs damage", but...it's a DPS Job. They ALL are "damage vs damage" when it comes to their core rotation. Vercure is not part of the core rotation. RDM's buttons are also all "damage vs damage". That's the way it works due to the rigid combat system FFXIV has, so that's not what I'm talking about.

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The entire kit is used to give jobs flavor, so comparing core rotations only is not a tangent I'm interested in taking. I liked old SMN because it was the tiniest bit versatile across the entire game, not because it could shuffle a few buttons around to squeeze more uptime during a Savage raid.

MNK is a DPS. It still gets to have Mantra, a traditional FF Monk skill, with a healing-related function similar to its function in other games. BRD is a DPS, but it still gets to have Warden's and Minne and Troub, non-DPS utility songs similar to what traditional FF Bards have. DNC is a DPS, but it gets to have non-DPS support skills (which don't fit its traditional character because they were plundered from BRD, but that's another tangent). None of them are Limited Jobs. Why does SMN, with a legacy of being more support-capable than the also-DPS jobs Monk and Dancer, have fewer on-demand support oGCDs?

And why aren't the ones it has consistently-themed to old FF games? Why does RDM have the party-wide magic barrier while Carbuncle, the recurring Final Fantasy magic defense summon, gives a single-target barrier? Shouldn't that be reversed? Shouldn't Carbuncle be giving party-wide magic resistance and RDMs casting some kind of juicy single-target buff spells? Oh, but you can use Phoenix, one of the most powerful recovery tools in Final Fantasy, to apply a piddly regen and a heal. Not whenever you want, though, only during the pre-approved Phoenix phase for 15 out of every 120 seconds. Doing it whenever you want would just be silly! Boo.

Really, it feels like Carbuncle is only still there now because it's cute and you can make it follow you around town and that will appeal to people who don't play Final Fantasy, but oh, we need to make a head-fake toward it having some kind of function, so uhhhh... make it required for the actual combat summons. Why? What for? It's all so slapdash and lazy and points further toward a preoccupation with visuals.

And on the topic of damage, why does most of its damage GCD time consist of blapping people with a Variety-Pak of Ruin spells instead of, you know, summoning different magical creatures? You say DoTs and a pet don't feel like a Summoner, but a wizard who just shoots bolts from his hands 85% of the time does? Nuh.

Why is the job flavor so lacking on the job that 'finally feels like a Final Fantasy summoner'? Is all the praise because people were getting nothing for so long and now they're getting crumbs instead?