Why is the Healer Subforum so Toxic?

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Originally Posted by Tigore

@ty_taurus

Looking through the SCH idea, it has some interesting concepts. Main things I see is the additional of a 3rd oGCD DoT with the return of our old 2nd DoT. Bane of course comes back too so the DoTs are not strictly single target for their core theme. Having Selene back offering damage reduction and Expedient speed buffs is an interesting take too. Dissipation switching between fairies is probably the problem point though. Unless we can't right click dismiss pets now, we can kind of forcefully switch doing that method already. Dissipation might have to summon both fairies to be a buff from that ... which would of course make it less of a choice between utilities if you have both anyways for that heal check ...

For AST, I can see that the cards are moved to the GCD to make it a bigger focus for being a buff class. This one I feel more neutral on since it could have a very weird feel to it when soloing as that class. Even though Stargazer can be applied to store 150 oGCD spells, it will still be at least 4ish GCDs used with doing no damage. Until you finally start to use Winter Malefic, Lord of Crowns, Knave of Crowns, Premonition and Celestial Opposition (as the new Divination to trigger the cards and do damage). It could be made to work, but it will feel like less actions are used with higher ramp up time.

The SGE idea looks to be very good and will probably have more popularity for the players here if I had to predict.

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On SCH, it was mentioned in there that as many DoTs might not be ideal due to debuff limits. I have an alternate suggestion of the DoT spells each applying one stack each of a single debuff that Bane can “detonate” as one big DoT. Manually swapping faeries requires the use of the GCD, so it isn’t optimal to do so often, but giving you the chose to throw your damage for an earlier swap is nice to have for rare situations.

I was informed in the AST one that “Fall Malefic” is not in reference to seasons, but an astrological concept, which I thought was neat, but it probably won’t be “Winter Malefic” in any case. It’s the idea that most drastically drifts from anything we’re familiar with, and without a prototyping build it’s difficult to gauge just how that solo experience would feel of stacking stars on yourself for brisk bursts of heavy DPS with break periods in between. I don’t really have much feedback other than a couple AST players who are not interested in entertaining the cards as GCD though, so I don’t think it’s a popular concept. I was, though, trying to accomplish creating a healer that hides their DPS as buffs and support because I think healers who do not like having to DPS should have a job that appeals to them. Of the healers we have now, AST makes the most sense in my mind to do something like that.

I am hoping astro is enjoyable for me again in 7.0

The card changes in STB hurt the job a lot for me but I stuck with it in SHB. But I really hate how it is in endwalker, macrocosmos looks beautiful but I just can't stand the job in it's current state which makes me sad. I played that job as soon as I hit heavensward exapc when I was new all through stb and shb till endwalker appeared and finally put the job in the grave for me.

But I am also wary of 7.0 putting it beyond the grave and into hell idk... I can't say I liked what they did to samurai with kaiten. What if they make the cards more crappy somehow?! xD

Yeah. AST being the buff healer would make the most sense. Maybe if SGE is successful as the high APM healer class, we could potentially design that one for the players who wanted that and are currently using AST to do that. Still need more input from others if this plan is okay.

I can also see stacking DoTs to work on the SCH. I did it in the RPG Maker MZ by having it swap to another state that represents the higher stack. Will the Bane be a high burst of damage consuming the DoT or another DoT swap for a stronger one?

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

I am hoping astro is enjoyable for me again in 7.0

The card changes in STB hurt the job a lot for me but I stuck with it in SHB. But I really hate how it is in endwalker, macrocosmos looks beautiful but I just can't stand the job in it's current state which makes me sad. I played that job as soon as I hit heavensward exapc when I was new all through stb and shb till endwalker appeared and finally put the job in the grave for me.

But I am also wary of 7.0 putting it beyond the grave and into hell idk... I can't say I liked what they did to samurai with kaiten. What if they make the cards more crappy somehow?! xD

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Not much changed about the cards in Stormblood other than Spear changing from cooldown reduction to a critical hit buff partway through. I don't recall when the buffed 20% balance was brought back down to 10%--if that was during Stormblood or the end of Heavensward. Am I missing something? Or do you mean not liking those changes?

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I don't recall when the buffed 20% balance was brought back down to 10%--if that was during Stormblood or the end of Heavensward.

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It was SB launch

I think they might have just typo'd the acronym and meant SHB the first time too. Not much changed for SB AST, other than getting the gauge as a visual representation for the cards. Maybe Sleeve Draw screwed them and put a Spire in their Spread one too many times?

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

It was SB launch

I think they might have just typo'd the acronym and meant SHB the first time too. Not much changed for SB AST, other than getting the gauge as a visual representation for the cards. Maybe Sleeve Draw screwed them and put a Spire in their Spread one too many times?

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I guess I wasn't thinking about the new card actions actually. Sleeve Draw putting Spire into your Spread also is what led to the creation of Unspread, and Minor Arcana was also a thing that was iffy. It was a cool concept but the fact that you couldn't plan for a Lady of Crowns made it inconsistent, and moreso than now because holding onto your Minor Arcana would eat into the recast timer of that actions since the cooldown didn't start until the card was played. Back then, the simple solution in my mind was just always having the Lord and Lady alternate. You draw the Lord, then you draw the Lady next, then the Lord again, and so on. That would be a really smooth way to address the Lady's inconsistency now especially since the cooldown is not blocked by holding onto your card. You'd be able to plan around using the Lady as she comes up because you know when to anticipate her.

The Spire card may need some thought for it still. So far, it is reduced spell casting time with no skill speed haste effect on the GCD. NINs and MCHs will probably not want it though with the Overheat and Mudra systems already getting them very close to GCD clips with oGCDs. MP Regen used to be a strong choice for myself with the previous Ewer card, but that one would only benefit half the classes too. I noticed a few AST players said they would like to have the class more Regen focused. I wonder if we could bring back Time Dilation and have it function like the Brewmaster Monk's Stagger mechanic. Only about 50 - 90% of the damage is taken upfront with the rest being a DoT over 6 - 10 seconds on the target.

The Aerith-like WHM idea could almost be called the Black Mage healer too, lol. Arcane Ward is pretty much Ley Lines, except it makes the spells generate Sun Lilies while standing in it. Spending Sun Lilies is comparable to a BLM spending their mana on Fire 4 to start getting into the meat of their DPS or healing spells. I see the other Lily to Blood Lily system is there and I guess it is a secondary resource kind of like how Xenoglossy and Foul are to a BLM. It is looking like some Sun Lily combos do not generate Lilies and go to the Blood Lily directly with the DPS options giving base lilies. Planet's Protection looks like a replacement to Asylum using Sun Lilies. Was it intended to use that first, then get the Lustrous Shield in it for intense healing situations? As for the DPS options, Soul Drain and Holy 3 will definitely get a lot of use.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

The Spire card may need some thought for it still.

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IIRC in another thread I suggested these or similar, going to also add tiny extras while I can (adjust values as needed for balancing):

Balance: Flat damage boost of X%
Bole: X% mitigation. If struck, deals damage to the attacking enemy with a potency of Y (idk what number would feel good here)
Arrow: Increases Autoattack speed by X% (only want to use this on melee/ranged ideally, but there could be interesting moments where a PLD can make use of the extra gauge it'd give (lmao))
Spear: Crit rate increase by X%
Spire: X% increased magic damage (want to use this on casters)
Ewer: MP restoration. If used on a healer, causes the target's spells to echo a second hit for X potency (or X% of the initial hit, whichever), which can't crit or dhit. (best used on healers, but can be thrown on casters in a pinch. casters would only get the MP)

Basically, bringing back the flavor of the cards, making more distinction of who to play each on, and actually balancing the values so the 'balance or bust' meme stays dead. Part of the problem with Balance that people gloss over now is that it's not just Balance that was the issue, it was specifically AOE Balance. By keeping Royal Road dead and buried, and the cards single target, we can open up room for more varied design. When you're comparing '5% more damage for 30s on everyone' to '10% reduced damage on everyone' of course there's a clear winner. But if they're single target, and you draw, say, Arrow? Is it worth rerolling that card and it's autoattack boost effect, when the result is going to be another singletarget buff with a similar overall RDPS boost? Also, Balance and Spear are role agnostic in this, because I want there to be an 'out' of sorts for if you draw, say, Spire, play it on your BLM, then draw another Spire before the first one falls off. Redraw there would not give you a seal you already have, so it'd be one of physical (arrow)/tank(bole)/healer(ewer)/any(balance).

Changing some stuff around to make it fit the way the game works now better as well. For example, old Arrow reduced GCD. This would cause drift, and with how important the 2min window is now, misaligning because your GCD changed would be poorly received even if the intentions were good natured. As such, to keep the 'feel' of the card intact, I change it to increased Autoattack speed, something we know is possible due to MNK having a CD that does it. Bole gaining a reflective component adds a damage output to the card that makes it desireable instead of 'this could have been more damage but it isn't so it's trash'. Spire is magic damage because uhh... there's a thunderbolt on the card and that seems kinda magic-y

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Originally Posted by Tigore

I wonder if we could bring back Time Dilation and have it function like the Brewmaster Monk's Stagger mechanic. Only about 50 - 90% of the damage is taken upfront with the rest being a DoT over 6 - 10 seconds on the target.

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cough

These card buffs look good as long as we keep to single target versions of the buffs. The moment we get the AoE Royal Road, we might be back to the Balance problem with maybe the Spear for Crit chance. As much as I try to think how Royal Road could make a return ...

I also didn't realize you started the Warcraft Brew Monk Tank Stagger mech already. I usually just check the New Posts link >.> Time Dilation could be the name for your "Retrograde". Another thing those Warcraft Monk Tanks do is used Purifying Brew to reduce the compiled delay DoT. I could imagine cooldowns like Essential Dignity and Celestial Opposition possibly fitting that role while your new Diurnal Sect is up. Earthly Star and Celestial Intersection could do instead of Celestial Opposition and Essential Dignity too. The lore could be something involving scrambling time enough to the point we cause some portion of an action to not happen or move to a different spot from us.

We just need to decide what is a good amount to purify if we agree to it. We know it likely can't be 100% of the compiled DoT since I was able to do really OP shenanigans removing it all in Warcraft. I was able to survive that Triceratops Boss' Impale debuff all the way to 18 stacks in LFR easy difficulty as long as I used Purifying Brew right when I got hit. It wasn't like I was trying to flex. My co-tank Panda Monk kept dropping like a fly at 2 stacks with no Shuffle for the Stagger mech. The raid was quite convinced it wasn't the class' fault he dropped since I was still standing. I had to eventually teach him the way since one of the last bosses for a Council fight would ice cube stun me if I held that boss too long. My co-tank had to take aggro for me to prevent the Monk kryptonite of being stunned.

Some of this could be a relevant weakness for this proposed AST idea. Being stunned or forced to move can impair their ability to delay the damage and counter with a HoT. Unless it is prepped up before the forced control loss.

Yeh monks are notorious for looking at a tankbuster called something like 'unmake universe' and going 'yeh I can stagger that'

If you go back far enough, my original want for 'stagger' in this game was to rework SB DRK (this was in 4.0 when it was super not-good, 4.3 helped it a lot) to be a stagger tank of sorts, renaming Stagger to Suffering because edgy, and using CDs like Dark Passenger to clear the accumulated Suffering. The first quest for the job said that a DRK (Fray) was clearly injured beyond what any normal person should be able to sustain, but he somehow carried on fighting as if the pain was not a hindrance, so it called to mind Stagger. Well, I guess we got Ignore Pain instead with the whole TBN thing

As for names, Retrograde means 'it looks like it's going backwards' in astrology terms apparently. Couldn't find a good term for it, Time Dilation could work (definitely fits better from an explanatory side) but I think they're trying to remove all mention of time from the class so they can free up room for Time Mage in 12.0