Whatever happened to “We don’t balance fights around healers needing to do damage?”

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Originally Posted by Fendred

In random groups it was a complete crapshoot if someone could wall pull as a scholar because our healing resources were limited in a way that white mage was not. Of course when ilvl started to kick in things got a little better. White mage could save an underperforming group, but everyone had to be on top of things for scholar to do it. There were only so many charges to use on lustrate before we were out of gas.

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Early SCH was a lot stronger at healing than people gave it credit for and a well played SCH could easily match a WHM.

The issue was that people were blindsided by Selene's tooltips. Her haste buffs were laughably misleading with people assuming that the huge haste percentages promised made her the absolute go to fairy (Go search my history on reddit, I got laughed off the FFXIV reddit for suggesting that EoS was actually a gain over Selene back then). The reality couldn't have been further away from this. Roused Whispering Dawn was an insane amount of healing on a pair of cooldowns that were up for every trash pull. Between that and Lustrate you could put out a huge amount of healing with no need to drop out of cleric stance. It was easily enough to compete with WHM on trash.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Oh, you're referring to non-savage content. I was talking about savage. Mitigations in savage are actually way more significant. There are times when a raidwide is going out and if only one person mitigates people survive at maybe 5-10% and that's with shields.

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Eh no, I'm referencing both.

In Savage, mitigation is there to stop the squishier members of the party being one shot. If you can save the SCH/Sadge having to drop a Succor to reliably pass the AoE check then sure. But that's really only a progression issue. Again, even this tier, AoEs just aren't that frequent compared to what we used to see back in the day.

I can't wait for tanks to be stripped down to 11111111111 as a damage rotation. Looking out for tankbusters is too hard otherwise. They have a role that requires situational awareness and it's completely destroyed by anything more complex than that.

Healers were never particularly complex in the damage department, but they certainly had more than *this* crap in expansions past. But clearly they were totally impossible to play back then. No no, must have 11111111111. It's too hard to triage unless you have 111111111.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I can't wait for tanks to be stripped down to 11111111111 as a damage rotation. Looking out for tankbusters is too hard otherwise. They have a role that requires situational awareness and it's completely destroyed by anything more complex than that.

Healers were never particularly complex in the damage department, but they certainly had more than *this* crap in expansions past. But clearly they were totally impossible to play back then. No no, must have 11111111111. It's too hard to triage unless you have 111111111.

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'i cant play DRK because what if i spend all my MP on edge of shadow and dont have enough to use TBN for the tankbuster???'

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Originally Posted by Fendred

if only one person mitigates people survive at maybe 5-10% and that's with shields.

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but they did survive, and it doesn't matter one fig whether they survive with 5% or 50% of their HP left, as long as they're healed enough to survive the next mechanic. they say 'the only HP that matters is the last one' and it's true, that DPS is going to be doing as much damage at 1hp as they would if they were at 40000hp. we're not in SB anymore where the tanks have stupid HP scaling moves like 'spirits within does less damage at lower HP', people can be left at literal 1hp for MINUTES at a time if there's no damage coming out for those minutes. and if there's enough time between the two instances of damage that i'm able to deal with it all via OGCDs then we will, and then what do we do with the time between those raidwides? we press 1 several times because we have nothing else to press, thanks to this idea that if we had TWO buttons to press during those long waits for more damage, we'd just panic and have a breakdown on the floor because this dot has a different duration from that dot, it's just too much to handle!

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

'i cant play DRK because what if i spend all my MP on edge of shadow and dont have enough to use TBN for the tankbuster???'



but they did survive, and it doesn't matter one fig whether they survive with 5% or 50% of their HP left, as long as they're healed enough to survive the next mechanic. they say 'the only HP that matters is the last one' and it's true, that DPS is going to be doing as much damage at 1hp as they would if they were at 40000hp. we're not in SB anymore where the tanks have stupid HP scaling moves like 'spirits within does less damage at lower HP', people can be left at literal 1hp for MINUTES at a time if there's no damage coming out for those minutes. and if there's enough time between the two instances of damage that i'm able to deal with it all via OGCDs then we will, and then what do we do with the time between those raidwides? we press 1 several times because we have nothing else to press, thanks to this idea that if we had TWO buttons to press during those long waits for more damage, we'd just panic and have a breakdown on the floor because this dot has a different duration from that dot, it's just too much to handle!

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What do you mean? There is a difference. 5% means a gentle breeze can kill everyone and it also means that we have to expend more resources bringing everyone up to full. Also, isn't this totally off topic? How did we go from talking about janky healing stuff to whatever this is?

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Originally Posted by Fendred

What do you mean? There is a difference. 5% means a gentle breeze can kill everyone

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And where, pray tell, is that gentle breeze coming from? The imaginary roomwide AOEs every 5 seconds? Are they here in the room with us?

Starting to think Sage might be the closest we'll get to a desired healer dps kit.

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Originally Posted by Elizasylen

Well now we’re still stuck with one button. The game requires our damage. And still we have no players to meet the PF demand. What has been accomplished…. Sigh

PS I’m in favor of scrubbing our GCD buttons for a more Warrior or Summoner level rotation btw.

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We get instant Ques I'm okay with that

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I can't wait for tanks to be stripped down to 11111111111 as a damage rotation. Looking out for tankbusters is too hard otherwise. They have a role that requires situational awareness and it's completely destroyed by anything more complex than that.

Healers were never particularly complex in the damage department, but they certainly had more than *this* crap in expansions past. But clearly they were totally impossible to play back then. No no, must have 11111111111. It's too hard to triage unless you have 111111111.

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I wouldn't complain about simplify tank rotations tbh

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

I wouldn't complain about simplify tank rotations tbh

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We should send you over to the tank forums and see how those players feel about that.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

5% means a gentle breeze can kill everyone and it also means that we have to expend more resources bringing everyone up to full. Also, isn't this totally off topic? How did we go from talking about janky healing stuff to whatever this is?

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The DRK bit is off topic, yes. Just me and my British sarcasm, because I used to be a DRK main in SB, and a causal DRK enjoyer in HW. I've watched that class go from 'Darkside drains your MP and you must manage your income to keep Darkside up', to 'Darkside pauses your MP gen so you can't accidentally drop it', to 'Darkside has no effect on your MP at all and is just a flat damage buff that you have to be trying to drop at this point'. At this point, why even have the 10% buff? Why not just remove that and buff all potencies by 10%, because the only thing it does at this point is lock you into using at least one Edge before Shadowbringer. But that's beside the point

The gentle breeze is going to happen according to a static timeline. We know there is a 'gentle breeze' coming to kill the raid because it has it's own castbar. In prog, yes we will heal people asap because we don't know what is coming next. But if I know that after the raidwide that drops everyone to 5%, there is no damage for an entire minute, I'm not in any hurry to heal them right away, so I could afford to wait until the Assize which is coming up soon, to do damage and heal at the same time. As for 'off topic', the majority is on topic. What I said is true, there is no reason to heal people ASAP outside of 'its prog and I dont know what's coming next'. Back in SB and earlier, tanks had weird skills that would do more damage based on current HP and they'd get angry if they had to use one with low HP cos it doesn't feel good to do less damage.

On the topic of 'it is ok to leave people at not-max HP for a bit if you know it's safe to', I realised earlier while doing reclears. Asylum, WHM skill, has an additional effect via a trait, of 'increases healing received by 10%'. Doesn't this just encourage newer healers to not let the regen effect tick, and instead throw it down, then go 'oh I know, I'll use a Rapture cos it's buffed!' and now the rest of the Asylum duration is just overheal?