This is not a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by cjbeagle
Kaiten could function only because it couldn't spend literally everything. Otherwise, the more efficient skill would be the only one worth having on our bars. Increasing Kaiten's consumption to a level where it could consume all available Kenki rotationally produced would remove all resource management, not increase it, once one noticed this and promptly removed Shinten and Kyuten from their bars upon acquiring TG. You'd simply get a Senei and maybe a Shinten (which at that point you may as well just macro together, as they're only used once each per 2 minutes) per Ikishoten, with all else being funneled into TG.
The only way for a TG to provide any increase in management would be for it to consume less Kenki than you rotationally make, such that it is a preferred but limited action (only useful on Midare or perhaps Tenka, because simply replacing Higan wouldn't do shit). Following Kaiten's cost and efficiency, it could offer roughly 320 effective potency over the average ppgcd of one's combos including their value towards Shinten (as your uncapped spender). That ppgcd is 352.5 at present. At the 20 Kenki cost that'd allow for Kaiten to increase --rather than remove-- gauge management, one could therefore have a 670-potency non-auto-crit Kaeshi: Midare follow-up or a ~450 potency auto-crit Kaeshi: Midare.
Now here are the more fundamental problems:
- Kaiten increases our apm slightly. A GCD Kenki spender reduces it. We feel slow enough as is at this point.
- You'd turn literally every Midare into a two-step combo. TG would no longer be a burst tool or any form of novelty, but just part of the normal skill for all intents and purposes.
- You'll have removed a burst tool, greatly diminishing Samurai's burst.
- You'll have removed the capstone / pacing element of TG from SAM from levels 76 and 83 (arguably when SAM has the most actual gameplay going on).
6.1 Kaiten Changes
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05-29-2022, 01:45 PMShurrikhan
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05-29-2022, 02:38 PMcjbeagleAdmittedly, I forgot to take into account the reduction in kenki generation when noting the cost - you're absolutely right that it'd need to cost less than 40 - probably much less - will update.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
1. Agreed, I wouldn't want to decrease the APM - the proposition would be to have it as an OGCD as a replacement for Kaiten, so the APM would be based strictly on how much it costs and how much Setsu procs refund.
2. True. Personally I find Tsubame-gaeshi to be one of the least-interesting abilities in the kit - I'd happily add complexity to the core rotation at the cost of a 60s cooldown now that it only hits for like 20-25k.
3. The idea would be to shift potency back into Ogi Namikiri. Kaeshi: Setsugekka is only 640 potency, Gekko or Kasha + Shinten is 630 - it's so lackluster as burst that it's hardly noticeable. Our burst would probably increase without even buffing Ogi because we'd get more Kashas, Gekkos, and Midares during burst windows.
4. Yeah, but the core rotation would get more complex. Personally I don't care about capstone abilities, I just want the job to be fun. Tsubame-gaeshi used to be relatively fun because it was huge burst - 990 potency that could also crit - now it's completely lackluster and no longer deserves the space it takes in the kit imo.
5. Bring back Kaiten so we don't have to debate replacement ideas. -
05-29-2022, 04:48 PMShurrikhanMy $0.02:Quote:
Originally Posted by cjbeagle
- Tsubame-Gaeshi, especially at only one charge, IS/WAS the majority of Samurai's macrorotational complexity (i.e., everything beyond cycling 12314516).
- I'm not asking for a capstone skill to work as a capstone skill just for the purpose of having a capstone skill. I want it for its complexity -- its ability to anchor and give reason for small rotational decisions leading into those key, decisive moments. That, in a nutshell, was the old one-charge TG.
- Shifting potency "back into" Ogi Namikiri does not require removing TG and its complexity. In fact, Ogi hasn't actually lost much of any damage on average. At 800 potency (effectively 1200 under Kaiten), it had an expected value (pre-DHit) of a relative 1290 potency before at 1350 Critical Hit. At an 800 potency auto-crit now, it has an expected value of 1200 potency at that same amount of Critical Hit. The anti-synergy of not being affected by Battle Litany costs all of 60 potency, or 4.4% of the original's buffed damage. Such is annoying and unfortunate, much like the devs' ill-warranted insistence on auto-crits, but it does not much change Namikiri's relative damage profile.
But yes, this.Quote:
5. Bring back Kaiten so we don't have to debate replacement ideas.
- Tsubame-Gaeshi, especially at only one charge, IS/WAS the majority of Samurai's macrorotational complexity (i.e., everything beyond cycling 12314516).
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05-29-2022, 05:27 PMShurrikhan
Counter-suggestions, pipedream though they may be:
- Gamewide change: All AoEs that originate from oneself, including cone and line AoEs, no longer require a target. A new option has been added, toggleable by command line/macro, as to whether to prefer one's main target over character facing for cone and line AoEs. Most conal skills' attack angle has been slightly widened.
- SAM to the last patch of Shadowbringers, apart from just 5 early Endwalker changes:
PRE-ENDWALKER CHANGES- Gamewide potency changes to account for the change in weapon damage calculations.
- Fugetsu and Fuka as separate buffs that can be generated from Gekko or Mangetsu and Shifu or Oka, respectively.
- Meikyo Shisui causes Kasha and Gekko to directly apply Fuka and Fugetsu, respectively.
- Tsubame-Gaeshi does not generate Meditation stacks. Shoha buffed in exchange.
- Increased attack range for Iaijutsu, especially Tenka Goken.
- Tsubame Gaeshi revised.
It is no longer made unavailable by using other weaponskills. However, it uniquely does not incur a global cooldown from Iaijutsu. This allows one to weave it in immediately after Iaijutsu and only Iaijutsu. Such tremendously decreases its punishment in terms of access for overclocking it while still rewarding perfect timing. Thus, it remains a rotational capstone, not just another burst tool to be tossed in every within 120 seconds, such that we can actually engage with SAM's macrorotation for more than just 15 seconds of every 120.
- Third Eye can now affect AoE damage, but without losing its unique animations.
Merciful Eye removed. Third Eye upgrades your next Shinten to Seigan and Kyuten to <name to be decided>, each of which deal the same potency, but at 10 less Kenki cost. If used within 4 seconds of Third Eye's depletion, they also heal you for 200 potency.
- Increased reward for proper combo priority management around Iaijutsu and Meikyo Shisui.
Potency siphoned back from Jinpu, Shifu, and Yukikaze towards Hakaze, Kasha, and Gekko. This makes it more rewarding to avoid Gekko and Kasha combos (favoring Yukikaze) where possible and to avoid Yukikaze itself where possible during Meikyo Shisui.
- Expanded use cases for non-Midare Iaijutsu.
Direct potency of Higanbana increased to one's level 30 ppgcd (i.e., roughly 270). This should make it actually worth applying at level 30, and decrease the enemy TTK threshold at which it's worth applying over Tenka from level 40 to 49.
Tenka Goken again deals increased damage against its first two enemies struck, expanding its use cases in two-target scenarios. Potency begins 50% higher, fading by 25% after the first and a further 25% after the second target struck, reaching its current damage at the third target onward. It is thus 50% stronger than previous in 1-target situations, 37.5% stronger in 2-target situations, and 25% stronger in 3-target situations. This should give certain raid fights further reason to use Tenka, perhaps even with Tsubame-Gaeshi.- Meditate adjusted.
Cooldown decreased to 40 seconds. Meditate no longer generates Meditation stacks, but instead reduces the Meditation stack cost of your next Shoha within 30 seconds by up to 3. This prevents it from being wasted by entering downtime with Meditation stacks.
It is also again an oGCD, but now generates Kenki and decreased Meditation stack costs per GCD spent since entering Meditation. A radial wheel now on Meditate itself indicates the time until the next GCD-based tick. This should make it feel smoother, more consistent, and more intuitive.- Yaten, Gyoten, and Enpi slightly adjusted.
Yaten and Gyoten now share two charges. As an additional effect, they cool 100% more quickly for each additional charge cooling. (This basically retains their former cooling rates while adding a degree of flexibility.)
The effective potency of Enpi is increased with each and every trait which would otherwise increase Yaten-Enpi's net cost above 20 potency.- Senei adjusted for optional increased button-efficiency.
If Senei is not added to one's hotbar manually, Guren will simply automatically use Senei instead whenever a target is selected and Guren does not detect more than one enemy (i.e., none other than the target) within its line of attack.
ENDWALKER ADDITIONS
Lv82
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Scarlet Blade
Shoha now additionally damages other enemies before and behind your target for 50% of its normal damage.
Lv84
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Calm Before the Storm
Allows the accumulation of charges for consecutive uses of Meikyo Shisui.
Maximum Charges: 2
Additionally, each Sen you consume reduces the cooldown of Meikyo Shisui by 1 second.
Lv86
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Steel Gale
Fuga, (Hyosetsu), Shifu, Enpi, Tenka Goken, Gyoten, and Yaten each gain an additional effect, Steel Gale.
Steel Gale: Increases your movement speed by 20%.
Duration: 2 seconds.
Additionally, Gyoten and Yaten gain a third charge and their cooldown is reduced by 2 seconds whenever you land a critical hit.
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Changing Winds
After activating your Ka and Getsu Sen, your next Fuga will instead become Hyosetsu.
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Hyosetsu
Delivers an attack with a potency of 130 to all nearby enemies.
Additional effect: Increases Kenki Gauge by 15
Additional effect: Grants Setsu
Lv88
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Of Sword, Storm, and Swell
For 15 seconds after activation, Ikishoten is converted to Sansenshin Shototsu and your uses of Iaijutsu to leave behind a mote of Sword, Storm, or Swell at the location from which they were cast.
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Sansenshin Soutotsu
Delivers an attack with a potency of 100 and detonate motes of Sword, Storm, and Swell, dealing potency 100 to the target and enemies before or behind it. Damage to the primary target is increased by 50 potency for each different positional area from which they are struck by Sansenshin Soutotsu.
Kenki Gauge cost: 20
Note: This therefore deals up to 800 potency, if striking simultaneously from left flank, right flank, front, and rear.
Lv90
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Essence of the Sword
Shoha now generates Quintessence. Expend 3 Quintessence at a time to cast Ogi Namikiri.
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Ogi Namikiri
Delivers an attack to all enemies in a cone before you that combines the effects of Midare Setsugekka and Tenka Goken, dealing 1000 potency to the first target struck, 420 potency to a second, 350 to a third, and 280 to all remaining enemies.
Requires 3 Quintessence.
In summary:- Take the end of Shadowbringers' gameplay loop...
- Add some polish. Don't trim depth.
- Build on fun and flavor.
- Add some flashy, decently complex available plays roughly per 60/90 seconds.
- Don't add button-bloat. Don't waste power budget on raw potency increases to combo skills.
- Gamewide change: All AoEs that originate from oneself, including cone and line AoEs, no longer require a target. A new option has been added, toggleable by command line/macro, as to whether to prefer one's main target over character facing for cone and line AoEs. Most conal skills' attack angle has been slightly widened.
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05-29-2022, 06:04 PMcjbeagleAgreed, but goal wasn't to shift potency back into Ogi Namikiri - the goal was to think of a new OGCD that functioned differently than Kaiten but reintroduced some prioritization and kenki management - something to spice up the gameplay of the normal rotation. My concept was an OGCD that followed Iaijutsu that would grant a random Sen. Then I realized that we already had Tsubame-gaeshi to follow Iaijutsu. Then I realized that I don't really care about Tsubame-gaeshi anymore anyway, so figured it'd work to just repurpose it. Buffing Ogi Namikiri was solely to compensate for any lost burst, not the other way around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
On average, maybe not, but nobody remembers when they Ogi and don't crit, they remember when they do. Ogi is currently 800 potency that always crits, so, at +50%, 1200 potency. Before, it was 900, +50% from Kaiten, 1350, and could also crit on top of that for over 2000, right? Those are the ones that got noticed and what made it feel powerful. On average I'm sure you're right, it's probably only like 20% weaker or something, but honestly that's even more egregious given the removal of crit variance - not only did it lose lucky peaks, but even the baseline is lower - the least they could have done is increase the baseline if they were going to get rid of the satisfying peaks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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05-29-2022, 06:27 PMcjbeagleI love all of these ideas!Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
None of the proposed changes/additions appear to serve as a replacement for Kaiten though, which is what we were talking about. Any spitballs for that? -
05-29-2022, 06:35 PMShurrikhan
I don't see much use for replacing near-perfection, but I imagine it'd come down to something like a choice between two follow-up skills, both at 20 Kenki cost, naturally.
Essentially, you'd have a flourish skill (a few different available animations based on which skills it follow up) -- some likely obvious visual/thematic overlap with Shoha, though, unfortunately -- that duplicates some portion of the previous weaponskill's damage.
And, you'd have a cleave skill the likes of Lann's Gliding Fury from Vindictus -- a fixed-distance forward dash skill that duplicates a lower portion of damage with fall-off (e.g., 70% of ST version's damage on first target, then 60%, 50%, and 40% onward).
That's about it. For all intents and purposes, it'd work just like Kaiten, so long as it remains an oGCD, except in that you could use it on Kaeshi skills, too. Downside is just that you'd need a .6s longer raid window since it follows, instead of precedes, your big bursty damage, and it'd be two numbers instead of just one really big one, so the floating combat text would be less eye-candy. -
05-29-2022, 06:39 PMCelestiCer
Kaiten removal just made SAM not satisfying to play for many - period.
Defending the removal to me only makes sense if they replaced removed skills with new skills that we didn't get. Often I see with fervent zealotry with discussions to proof in great lengths how little Kaiten meant, contradicting the opposite. If it meant so little? then having kept Kaiten wouldn't have mattered to them vs to those who loved and miss it now.
Auto-Crits / DPS variance / Non-Existing Button and Action Bloat / Top DPS or not / It's still viable / You still perform / It's now all better for parses <- I do not care. We're all acting like think-tanks on the forums, theory-crafting the why's the how's and the what-ifs, I rather keep it simple...
- Samurai was a lot more fun with Kaiten.
- Samurai now is a lot less fun without Kaiten.
Square messed up in my eyes. Give Kaiten back.
Until Square is ready to replace it with something worth replacing -
05-30-2022, 01:37 AMKabooaGenerally speaking, I don't think Tsubame should be repurposed as a Kenki spender. I have opinions on what should be done with Tsubame, but they're all pretty messy.Quote:
Originally Posted by cjbeagle
Kaiten's already elegant enough, though that doesn't mean there isn't room for another. Frankly I think we should take inspiration from Chiten from the PVP mode.
Third Eye
Ability
Recast: 15
Effect: Reduces damage taken from next attack by X%. Upon blocking damage, morphs into Hissatsu: Seigan for 6 seconds, granting "Some Fancy Word for Foresight" for 30 seconds.
Hissatsu: Seigan
Ability
Recast: 2
Cost: 25 (Example)
Effect: Deals damage to the enemy for 100 potency. For each stack of "Foresight", potency increases by 100. Consumes Foresight.
Speaking personally, I like counter attacks, and while counter attacks tend to be abused, most "serious" content in this game punishes that abuse through damage downs or just plain death, even with mitigation used by DPS jobs. I think this sort of ability interaction works alongside Kaiten because it wouldn't compete with Kaiten, it just competes with Shinten, the dump. Removing the Kenki generation and instead giving you an action with ramping Kenki efficiency also helps deal with the deluge of Kenki income.
I also think this mostly avoids the pitfalls the devs are trying to avoid while also encouraging good play. "Use your mitigation", and because it is ultimately a deterministic potency increase (This is something you could map out in encounters if you wished) it wouldn't be subject to much damage variance, and there's also multiple cases for when you would want to dump your stack.
1. At 2+ defenses, it's more efficient than Shinten, so you can just use it here and get a slightly harder hit. This is new player friendly, and doesn't require knowing much of the encounter. You also ponied up no Kenki to attempt this, so the punishment is low.
2. If you need extra damage, you can cash it in at whatever stack you're at, even if you'd prefer to hold it until you literally cannot extend its duration with a refresh.
3. God mode Samurai who landed every defense in the last 3 minutes and is about to end this enemy's whole career.
I, personally, find the idea of dancing through an encounter for 5 minutes, landing every defense in that time period, and demolishing an enemy execute-style extremely satisfying.
To clarify, there'd be room for both this and Kaiten, as the two do not necessarily compete with the other. They both primarily compete with Shinten, and the long timer on Focus ensures you rarely have to choose between Kaiten and Seigan, but you are still encouraged to bank a certain amount of Kenki. -
05-30-2022, 05:33 AMxAFROxYes, dear God, give me a good Seigan! I miss it so muchQuote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa