The Problem(s) with Paladin

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Fury

Just finished CC as WAR tank.
Hate was an issue I was Antagonizing/sentinel on steel cyclone. I lost hate and wiped.
I checked my log to notice cyclone critting 79 damage on Chimera....
Then I used PLD, Riot, Goring and Spirits all hit 300+ dmg on chimera and no hate issues whatever.

That cyclone nerf really shows on high defense bosses. I used to crit at least 400 on chimera with cyclone

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So people will use the same old WAR/BLM/BRD stacking method but have 1 person change to PLD when they get to Chimera.

Speed runs needs to go away.

only read the Op post so dunno if anyone else has the same idea as me but turn paladin it into Dark Knight make its armour darker and give it some spells and give it a selection of sword and axes to use, and make it a DD class.

give War the choice of great sword, sword + shield or great axe.

I mean I'm no balance or gaming expert I just like more choice and a more diverse selection for everyone not everyone pimping about in the same weapon

and obviously balance the jobs defence and such like but I personally think they were stuck between two ideas in the sense of one being a tank and other being a DD they mixed and matched it as we all know.

back to the drawing board again SE.....

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Why would anyone wear full AF? It's really bad. Go to the wards and spend 100k on some upgrades.

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PLD AF would be incredible if the game actually focused on Defense/Abilities more and not how much you can boost your HP.

It sounds more like people just prefer War over Pld and a lot less like Pld is somehow not measuring up to War.

This debate reminds me way too much of Ninja Vs Pld in 11, and sounds like people just do not want to tank with a classic tank. I know a bit of over-simplification, but, this is an MMO, people are always going to push for the highest numbers, and, well, SE will never intentionally make a tank job that simply holds hate against everything everyone throws at a mob. The concept is not only silly, it is self-defeating in the end. But, I suppose, they could always try and give you want you ask for (I am not trying to sound crass). I am curious to see how it would work.

And the funny part is, the Skill vs argument is already starting... I have already heard too many stories about how Pld has measured up, and too many arguments about how "Well, it may work for you, when we try a Pld they go squish" or something along that lines.

From the sound of it, Pld is now the job that has reached a point that SE has been striving for. People need to know how to use the job for it to be good. War on the other-hand became the job, Zerg it, and it will all just die.

And the people have decided, they just want things to die... (ok, that was being a little crass).

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Originally Posted by LytheJade

It sounds more like people just prefer War over Pld and a lot less like Pld is somehow not measuring up to War.

This debate reminds me way too much of Ninja Vs Pld in 11, and sounds like people just do not want to tank with a classic tank. I know a bit of over-simplification, but, this is an MMO, people are always going to push for the highest numbers, and, well, SE will never intentionally make a tank job that simply holds hate against everything everyone throws at a mob. The concept is not only silly, it is self-defeating in the end. But, I suppose, they could always try and give you want you ask for (I am not trying to sound crass). I am curious to see how it would work.

And the funny part is, the Skill vs argument is already starting... I have already heard too many stories about how Pld has measured up, and too many arguments about how "Well, it may work for you, when we try a Pld they go squish" or something along that lines.

From the sound of it, Pld is now the job that has reached a point that SE has been striving for. People need to know how to use the job for it to be good. War on the other-hand became the job, Zerg it, and it will all just die.

And the people have decided, they just want things to die... (ok, that was being a little crass).

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A good WAR will always be better than a good PLD.

I don't believe the topic is on making PLD work, because technically, it does work and is useable in content. The problem is that it just no where near measures up to what WAR can give. You can cut WAR's usefulness by half and it would still be a better tank than PLD right now.

If people look at having PLD as a challenge and gloating they can beat a dungeon with it, then there is a problem. Even those people are acknowledging PLD is a bad tank to use and they work with it.

Honestly, I rather PLD be the superior tank over WAR. While WAR should be able to tank in his own unique way, I want PLD to be the one people depend on. Unlike PLD, WAR can specialize in both tanking and be a full time DPS, which isn't completely fair to the PLD. PLD needs to be the ultimate tank.

Like I said, if you want to fix PLD, just make their abilities generate a lot more hate than they do now, and change the stats that Defense > HP, and PLD would be good to go.

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

Greetings.

Allow me to preface my post by saying that I am very grateful to Yoshi P, Dev Team, and the community reps for all their hard work on FFXIV, and I profoundly wish for 2.0 to be a blockbuster success. ( o.O) I pay for two accounts, I have been since payment requirement resumed, and I will continue to for the foreseeable future.

I'd also like to say to the community reps who will hopefully read this (;@_@) Your patience astounds me. If I had your job, I'd have nuked the entire forum from orbit by this point. Thanks very much for all that you endure.

My post today is in regards to Paladin and how it still falters in its assigned role. Paladin struggles to find a niche in the current Jobs lineup, and I think it very important to consider that it is not tweaks and adjustments, but rather, a concept change, to bring Paladin up to speed with the current, and, to the best of my knowledge, future direction of the game.

Below are the points I've prepared. (>> ) Tried to make 'em quick and concise, and easy to pore over.


(1. HP
Strong oneshot moves are a much greater threat to PLD than WAR. Period.
Shield block does not proc on 100-tonze swing, for example. Further addressed in Defense.


(2. Offense
Paladin has no capacity to assist in speed runs, and its existing abilities are not sufficient for crowd control, even when not gunning for speed runs. Even Circle Slash was taken away.

Game is AOE-centric, Paladin has nothing for that. Cannot even use Foresight/Overpower, because Paladin is denied the capacity to parry.

(3. Defense
Parrying is superior to Shield block, period. Takes 2-3 shield blocks to equal damage mitigation of one parry.

Warrior received an ostensible nerf in Rampage adjustment, nerf actually turned into a big buff. Paladin's half-a-minute guaranteed blocks do not compete with Rampage parrying enhancement.

If a Warrior is under attack, their Rampage is not going to fade, it's going to stay. This goes doubly if they are under attack from multiple targets. Concept design of Rampage adjustment flawed.

Paladin is no better at dealing with magic attacks than Warrior. Until 1.22a hotfix, it was, in fact, worse, due to Fighter's Cuirass/Vengeance. Hallowed Ground is 15 minutes, and so does not give Paladin a real edge against magic monsters, as it's a 20-second desperation ability, on a long cooldown, not something you use to keep damage manageable throughtout a fight.

All of the above ignores that any critical hits the Warrior lands replenishes the Warrior's HP due to Rampage, and that this HP resupply is inexhaustible, unlike Paladin's hapless MP pool.

Warrior damage mitigation now equal to, arguably superior to Paladin, IN ADDITION to their higher HP.

(4. Mods
Paladin's offense is further hampered by requiring MND as their secondary.

MND is hard to gear for when tanking. VIT and HP are what a tank usually loads up on, VIT happens to be secondary mod for WAR's damage, and Warrior does not need to build for HP, leaving them free to gear for offense, which Paladin cannot do without compromising their already-weak survivability.

Paladin suffers a loss of STR from GLA, further hampering its already-low offensive stats and capacity.


Bullet points, the tl;dr version of tl;dr!


- Warrior survivability higher than Paladin

- Warrior utility in multiple-target situations vastly superior to Paladin

- Warrior defensive capacity equal to or superior to Paladin

- Warrior equip optimization for tanking allows them to gear for additional damage without sacrificing survivability. Paladin must gear specifically to match Warrior survivability, thereby falling further behind offensively.

- Warrior offensive capacity vastly superior to Paladin, marginally less so after 1.22a. Riot Blade is still eighty seconds, and Rage of Halone is 30. That makes no sense. Warrior combos are faster, and still stronger.

- Removal of enmity bonus from Phalanx hurt. A lot.
No, seriously. Phalanx was actually useful when it had an enmity bonus. Now, it's just a low-damage throwaway, or opener for Spirits once a minute.

- Second Wind is freebie. Holy Succor is not.

- In order to actually get any MP from Outmaneuver, you have to pair it with Divine Veil. Waste of an ability slot, since you only ever use Outmaneuver if Divine Veil is ready.

- Warrior AF is useful. Paladin AF is not.

- No, seriously. Two pieces of gear with either straight enmity, or an enmity bonus effect, and offensive stats/solid HP (in the case of Fighter's Burgeonet and Fighter's Breeches) is vastly superior to five pieces with Enmity from 1 to 5, and lackluster tanking stats.
There is a good reason Touch of Rage materia got doubled in potency. Enmity is very incremental in effect, Paladin's AF enmity is *worthless*.

- Paladin is at a disadvantage while kiting, needs to stop and cast magic to heal itself, Warrior has Second Wind/Featherfoot, can dodge a hit, restore HP, keep going. This might not be so bad if Warrior was not already superior in all other categories. Instant cast Holy Succor would help this, an abrupt halt can be managed with turn-to-face-target H key before starting cast.

- Flat Blade's high enmity modifier is good, but the weaponskill itself is rather weak. Strong targets reduce the effectiveness of Flat Blade to being roughly equal to Skull sunder, perhaps a little weaker.
Again, this might not be such a problem if Warrior was not already superior to Paladin in every other category.

- Warrior has Antagonize IN ADDITION to Sentinel. Antagonize with AF head is a 1.65x enmity multiplier, 1.5x without. Paladin has nothing even remotely close. WAR AF head also has +60 HP, small bonuses to their damage mods, and +10 crit rate. PLD AF head has a good MND bonus in comparison, but no HP.

- Antagonize affects all abilities. Sentinel, at this time, only affects damage from auto-attack and weaponskills.

- Collusion. Partially nerfed, but another enmity advantage over Paladin, while Warrior already has no problem competing with/besting Paladin in enmity output.

- Cure enmity is divided up amongst active opponents, according to player testing. Enmity incurred from a Holy Succor divided amongst six to eight targets is inconsequential.

- Stat comparison:

HP: WAR +400
MP: PLD+700 (irrelevant to WAR)
STR: WAR+20 (mod for both PLD and WAR)
VIT: PLD+12 (mod for WAR)
DEX: WAR+21 (Parry/block rate)
INT: WAR+30 (Irrelevant to both)
MND: PLD+21 (mod for PLD)
PIE: PLD+30 (With all that PIE noted there, PLD has a total of +8 magic evasion over WAR. Fellow posters, please do not begin ranting about how Paladin is superior on magic mobs. That number is flatly irrelevant, and we all know it.)

Summation:

Paladin fails to be a superior single-target tank.

Paladin fails to be a superior multiple-target tank.

Paladin fails to be a superior offensive tank.

Paladin fails to be a superior defensive tank.

Warrior is still superior in all categories. They might have actually increased their lead now with Rampage becoming better at defense.

Paladin cannot even adequately defend itself, let alone party members. The concept of Cover is slightly flawed in XIV, because if your target is out amongst the mages, your most immediate problem is not the physical attacks the mob will deal to its current target, but rather, the powerful AOEs that it will use instead. Cover does not actually provide much in the way of protecting the party.

A damage reduction aura would be a better application for Cover, or a new ability once level cap is raised, rather than simply replacing Cover as it is now. The central point is that Paladin needs to be able to do three things effectively;

(1. Keep the target/targets enmity on the Paladin.

(2. Survive the enemy's assault.

(3. Minimize the risk to the rest of the party as they attack the target, and facilitate the no-holds-barred beatdown of the target. Hate redirection, damage mitigation auras, enfeebling of the enemy (defense down, evasion down, crit evasion down), et cetera. Divine Regen is a good idea in this vein, and a good start. Collusion falls under this category, but a better idea for Paladin is, again, mitigation of incoming damage for the party, and enhancement of the party's offensive capacity against the enemy.

The latter is doubly important if Paladin is to remain void of AOE damage potential.

Give parties a real reason to want a Paladin along.


Thank you for your consideration. (_ _ ) {/bow}

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Awesome dude! But isn't it funny how we could all come up with the conclusion above because it's damn obvious, yet SE is completely oblivious to it. I really don't know what SE's problem with PLD is, it's like they hate the class or they believe it should be just a support class, backup tank.

Now lets all sit back and wait for the ussual "its coming in 2.0 !" response and be done with it. They never got PLd right in XI (although its better there than it is here) and I am sure they look forward to many long and fruitfull years of not getting it right in XIV.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

A good WAR will always be better than a good PLD.

I don't believe the topic is on making PLD work, because technically, it does work and is useable in content. The problem is that it just no where near measures up to what WAR can give. You can cut WAR's usefulness by half and it would still be a better tank than PLD right now.

If people look at having PLD as a challenge and gloating they can beat a dungeon with it, then there is a problem. Even those people are acknowledging PLD is a bad tank to use and they work with it.

Honestly, I rather PLD be the superior tank over WAR. While WAR should be able to tank in his own unique way, I want PLD to be the one people depend on. Unlike PLD, WAR can specialize in both tanking and be a full time DPS, which isn't completely fair to the PLD. PLD needs to be the ultimate tank.

Like I said, if you want to fix PLD, just make their abilities generate a lot more hate than they do now, and change the stats that Defense > HP, and PLD would be good to go.

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Agreed. I think they could easily make PLD the go to job for tanking large scale nm and dungeon bosses, while still keeping war good for tanking everything else. Sadly they can't even seem to give us a single one up over Warriors in any catagory, much like the OP pointed out.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

A good WAR will always be better than a good PLD.

I don't believe the topic is on making PLD work, because technically, it does work and is useable in content. The problem is that it just no where near measures up to what WAR can give. You can cut WAR's usefulness by half and it would still be a better tank than PLD right now.

If people look at having PLD as a challenge and gloating they can beat a dungeon with it, then there is a problem. Even those people are acknowledging PLD is a bad tank to use and they work with it.

Honestly, I rather PLD be the superior tank over WAR. While WAR should be able to tank in his own unique way, I want PLD to be the one people depend on. Unlike PLD, WAR can specialize in both tanking and be a full time DPS, which isn't completely fair to the PLD. PLD needs to be the ultimate tank.

Like I said, if you want to fix PLD, just make their abilities generate a lot more hate than they do now, and change the stats that Defense > HP, and PLD would be good to go.

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This post succinctly describes the problem.

You can do it with Paladin. It is not a particularly attractive option, though.

There's no reason to want a Paladin. It doesn't bring its own unique edge to the group.

People say that "If you have a Paladin, you don't need two white mages." I feel a bit dumb for asking, but in what situation does a Paladin's presence no longer necessitate two white mages?

The reason you have two white mages in any given "two white mage" event is to maintain the HP of the party, not the tank. You do not bring two white mages to Ifrit to save the tank, you bring two white mages to Ifrit to keep the DD afloat. You do not bring two white mages to Moogle solely to keep the tank alive, you bring two white mages to keep the party alive when the moogles AOE or swap targets. You do not bring two white mages to Garuda, because it can be accomplished with only one white mage.

You do not bring two white mages to EXP, because it simply isn't necessary with Regenga. o.o In what situation do you bring two white mages for the tank? I know of none. This supposed edge over Warrior simply doesn't exist.

nice ideas; many of which we've all been saying the whole time and although they say they do, SE doesn't seem to listen to any of it. my thoughts:

aoe damage (buff damage ~100% and reduce c/d to 30sec on war drum)
revamp of blocking entirely (although they're going in the right direction. now onto dmg mitigation)
ability to parry (why the fc uk not? they have sword!? i can parry damn well in dark souls)
outmaneuver stance (raises block rate grants mp on block)
aegis boon stance (lowers block rate grants hp on block). BOOM!

or you can give them some useful ability-combo-heals and maybe a support stance so they can add to survivability of close ranged battles and debuff the enemy. i know a lot of people hate the paladin healer idea but it gives them and our current battle mechanics all new uses and possibilities.