Can we delete Seraph, Dissipation, Excog and Sacred Soil? Some ideas on top of it...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Due to its CD, you couldn't outright maintain Shadowflare anyways. You merely kept them aligned apart from each other as best you could.

And the minor damage ticks of Shadowflare would get the boot over Soil any time the latter's mitigation would exceed the value of other non-ED Aetherflow tools.

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In dungeons ShadowFlare's Slow + Damage out performed Sacred Soil which merely only provided a damage reduction.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

MP for healers is pretty much a 'don't spam medica II' gauge coupled with some way to keep in combat raises somewhat under control in anything that doesn't enrage.

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That moment when you realize Medica 2 is more raw healing on a single target than Cure 2 (for the exact same mana) currently. Great job whoever designed that!

In any instance where you actually need to use Cure II, as few and far between as that should be, Medica 2 is an upgrade.

Shadowflare's slow was 5%.

5%.

You would be lucky for it to negate a single auto over its duration and it did nothing to the frequency of special attacks.

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Originally Posted by Icecylee

"you just want to deal more damage" is a pretty disingenuous take away from you personally not being to understand why people are bored, and why former WHM mains in particular might not be thrilled with the idea of everything *but* WHM getting some kind of theoretical fix but being left to rot. Like, even in ARR WHM was dozens of times more complex than it is now. Every without going into cross class actions, you had two dots, your filler spell... but on top of that regen uptime actually mattered, you had put a tiny bit of foresight into the buttons you wanted to push and in what order due to cleric stance, stoneskin was still a thing, and you didn't have basically any oGCD healing except for benediction which was on a massive cooldown, so what you were doing from moment to moment was still pretty varied even if your party didn't suck and get hit by avoidable damage constantly.

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But...I AM a WHM main. o.O

DOZENS of times more complex? In ARR we had one more DoT (Aero 1 and 2 were distinct) and could cast Stone 1 if you...wanted to see the flying rock animation and not get the Stone 2 Heavy (I think it inflicted Heavy...) Our oGCD healing kit was Benediction.

That...was it. So other than once every 3 minutes, we had to drop Cleric and hardcast heals on WHM. Now, Medica 2 lasted longer (30 sec) and Regen 18, I believe, so you could Medica 2 the party, Regen the tank, the go back into Cleric for a bit more damage and had to be mindful enough of fights to not need to heal for the next 5 seconds/two GCDs, but that was it for the "complexity". The Job had WAY less heals overall, no burst window outside of Presence of Mind, no option for oGCD healing outside of Bene, and no Thin Air so MP management was actually a thing using Shroud of Saints (the precursor to Lucid Dreaming, used in approximately the same way - it also reduced agro, though, which could be important). We did have Stoneskin, but in practice few people used it (I got witched at more than once for using it in actual parties and told it was worthless), and we have Benison now to do the same thing without taking up a GCD anyway. Granted, I personally wish we had Stoneskin because I loved the animation, and maybe have it upgrade to Benison or Aquaveil, but I'm obviously not a game Dev for FFXIV. Oh, and we had Largess, for when we needed more heals or entered a 4 man and didn't realize Cleric was still on from when we were questing.

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Where is this "dozens" of times more complex? On a technical optimization level, WHM is arguably more complex now just due to Lilies/Misery allowing movement optimization akin to SCH's Ruin 2 and lining it up with burst windows. Turning Cleric off to heal then back on again after? That's not "dozens" of times more complex.

In HW, we got Aero 3, but that was for AOE situations, not generally single target. We got the addition of Assize to use on CD, Asylum for some relatively token healing on a semi-long CD, and an oGCD Cure 2 every minute. And also Thin Air in there somewhere, I guess? But I feel like that wasn't a very useful skill at the time. So that was it. An AOE oGCD you used more or less on CD for the damage and MP regen, a long CD party HoT oGCD, a MP regeneration tool, and a once a minute oGCD Cure 2. Our damage kit was unchanged for single targets other than we used Assize on CD.

Again, dozens of times more complex? HOW?

I mean, seriously, correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been playing CNJ/WHM since 2.3. WHM has NEVER been terribly complex. It had one more DoT than it has today. Maybe you could cross-class one from ACN, but that again doesn't make something "dozens" of times harder. People keep overstating this.

SCHOLAR had a more complex damage kit (and less complex healing one) and Lustrate worked differently (and, along with Eos, allowed cheesing Cleric Stance somewhat), but WHM has honestly never been. I don't understand this insistence people have to lie and say that it was. Going from EW to ShB, we lost Aero 3 (an AOE tool that you would slap on enemies once every 3-5 Holies in AOE situations) and one DoT since our Aero line was compressed into one spell that upgraded. That's it. Cleric had already just been made into a DPS CD in SB, so dropping it wasn't really a change since it was already a "use on CD" damage boost and nothing more.

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Sure it wasn't perfect, but it was a bit more involved and certainly a lot more engaging. I used to love WHM back then and mained it all throughout turns 1-13, but I can't stand playing it (or any other healer) these days since it's such a shallow husk of what it used to be. It's not strange that someone might want the bare minimum levels of engagement we used to have back, rather than being stuck with the brain dead button masher we have now. It's not like the requirements for the role have done anything but get easier for the last few expansions in a row.

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It was more engaging because we didn't have oGCD heals and so our "rotation" of Stone 2 spam was interrupted more frequently by a Cure 2 or Medica 2. Or in Niddy, Cure 3.

I mean, maybe I'm missing something, but other than Cleric - which was NOT some galaxy brain god tier level of complexity and innovative game design (it was clunky and kind of obnoxious, which is why it was eventually removed) - and that MP management was worse (since you actually had to cast GCD heals), WHM was never more complex than today. Let's be seriously honest about that.

SCH? Sure.
AST? Sure.

But WHM? Not really, no.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Sweeping generalisations are bad pls. <and the rest of the post>

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I agree, but that runs both ways here. The point still has truth to it in that many people refuse to allow ANY of the four healers to stay simple. Why? IF the argument is not wanting to be bored, if 1, 2, or 3 of the healers allow you that, why is allowing one to remain simple and perform comparably a problem? Especially since you're asking the people that like simple to give up (vs where they are now) 1, 2, or 3 healers already. Why insist on all 4?

I've been playing since 2.3. SCHOLAR was more complex in a lot of ways, but WHM? We had one more DoT and less oGCDs so we had to GCD heal (without Lilies) more frequently. That and fiddling with the clunky Cleric Stance were the only real differences. You could argue Virus and Eye For an Eye, but that didn't add a great deal of complexity to the Jobs and wasn't much different than how we use oGCDs now, just on mitigation instead. For WHM. For SCH, again, it was a little more interesting, especially with Deployment Tactics (which worked with Eye, as I recall)

I do agree that the overall encounter model is a problem, though. But I've said that several times already. /scratches head

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

In any instance where you actually need to use Cure II, as few and far between as that should be, Medica 2 is an upgrade.

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Medica 2 takes 15 seconds to get there, Cure 2 takes 2 seconds. Cure 2 is for when you need a fairly large heal quickly and all at once, and don't have (or are synced to a level below having) Solace and Tetra. Not that I recommend actually DOING this, mind you, but with Presence of Mind, Lucid Dreaming, and weaving Thin Airs, Cure 2 spam is among the most powerful form of sustained healing in the game. Only really useful when tanks that don't have any idea how to use CDs (or seem not to know they exist) pull entire dungeons that they're undergeared for. But provided they aren't being alpha-struck into KO, Cure 2 spam can keep almost anything alive.

Until you run out of MP, anyway.

And you don't ever actually NEED to do this now since we have so many oGCDs.

Medica 2 spam does not do that because the HoTs don't do some kind of burst heal when you cast a second one (something like Lily's heal based on stacks when the duration expires), they just refresh the duration.

Man, I really don't know what to tell you if you think playing WHM is even remotely as involved today as it was back in ARR/HW, *especially* in causal content. It's not so much that kit was massively more involved, but the moment to moment gameplay was definitely more complex. The two dots came up a lot more (12s and 18s, rather than a single one at 30) which did a ton to break up the stone 2 spam all on it's own, then you had fluid aura in there for funsies with every other aero. But back then you weren't just spamming stone, either. The lack of ogcd heals meant you were generally wanted high up time on regen (in no small part, I'm sure, to it having had 1/4th of the potency back in the day), and it wasn't uncommon for bosses to randomly spin and smack dps, either, so you'd be on the look out for that too. GCD heals were things you occasionally actually had to do to keep people alive, rather than wasting so you can get a big boom later. The longer cast times on your damage GCDs also meant you had to be a bit more mindful of positioning and know how to slide cast, and made finding weave space for cleric's a little more tricky than it otherwise would have been. (also I'm one of those weirdos that *did* like cleric's stance, but I can definitely understand why most people did not and it was removed, but like, it still added another layer of complexity in there).

I wasn't trying to present old WHM as this hard core galaxy brained thing, because yes, it was in fact a lot more direct and straight forward than Scholar... but I still had to think and pay attention to a lot more stuff that was happening back then than I do now. It *was* more involved in the moment to moment gameplay and decision making fronts, and if you can't see that then I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. But even at the absolute most base level I cannot fathom how you could think 1 30s dot and 1 filler spell (and one bigger filler spell every 90 seconds, or well 60 now, if you remembered to waste some GCDS you likely didn't need earlier) is Exactly As Complex as managing a 18s dot with a 12s dot and then a filler spell between those.

Also the former WHM mains comment was mostly because the person you'd been replying to at the time is a fairly well known one who's been advocating for changes for several, on top of then delving into my own experiences. Wasn't like, a flex on you or whatever.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

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You’re missing a few bits there. In early ARR we had Thunder as well as Aero III later on.

There’s also Fluid Aura which was an interesting ability in it’s own right. Whilst on the surface it’s easy to dismiss it as a simple damage oGCD, getting value from it was a neat little distraction in it’s own right. You wanted to use it CD to get the most damage from it, but also had worth pushing casters into the stack, otherwise you also wanted to be mindful to push mobs into a wall rather than tossing them out of aoes. It wasn’t rocket science, but it was something to think about that wasn’t entirely scripted, consistent and predictable.

The same can be said of Cleric Stance TBH, I’ll always stand my opinion that as a concept it was little more than a lame punishment mechanic, but it added a whole ton of depth to the job.

Even Aero III added depth, finding windows to get it cast mid pull was enjoyable and required thought.

It’s the combination of these kind of things that make BLM the job it is now, and IMHO it’s the consistent removal of these things that is the root of a lot the discourse over healers that’s been steadily growing over the last 2-3 expansions.

Thunder wasn't available to WHM or SCH cross class. Nor was Miasma available to WHM. WHM could use Surecast, Swiftcast, Blizzard II, Ruin (a waste, as it was only 100 potency), Virus, and Eye for an Eye.

Aero III wasn't added until HW. Fluid Aura will be missed though, especially as a mini-CC / gathering skill in dungeons.

Small correction to Ren's earlier post: Stone applied the Heavy, not Stone II. Stone II traded any utility for further damage.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Thunder wasn't available to WHM or SCH cross class. Nor was Miasma available to WHM. WHM could use Surecast, Swiftcast, Blizzard II, Ruin (a waste, as it was only 100 potency), Virus, and Eye for an Eye.

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I think my old PoV from Titan is gone but here's another:

https://youtu.be/hflUq3qBPlA?t=40

Hotkey number 5, thunder was available for cross class as WHM. Just a lot of people didn't appreciate it's value.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I think my old PoV from Titan is gone but here's another:

https://youtu.be/hflUq3qBPlA?t=40

Hotkey number 5, thunder was available for cross class as WHM. Just a lot of people didn't appreciate it's value.

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Shoot, weird that it's not in any of the old guides. Could that just be because of its potency? At the time, THM had a 15s, 18s, and 21s (or was it 18, 21, 24?) duration version of Thunder across 3 forms, each at the same 30 potency per tick? Stone II was... 180p at the time, up from Stone's 140?

If Miasma we're available, though, it would be guaranteed at its potency over Stone II, yet not only is it not among Cross-class recommendations, but it's notes specifically as not an option.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Shoot, weird that it's not in any of the old guides. Could that just be because of its potency? At the time, THM had a 15s, 18s, and 21s (or was it 18, 21, 24?) duration version of Thunder across 3 forms, each at the same 30 potency per tick? Stone II was... 180p at the time, up from Stone's 140?

If Miasma we're available, though, it would be guaranteed at its potency over Stone II, yet not only is it not among Cross-class recommendations, but it's notes specifically as not an option.

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it was removed from cross class. i don't know when exactly, but by heavensward whm no longer had access to it