"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Anyone else find it humorous how many threads get made on this board that basically amount to the OP saying they shouldn't have to follow online etiquette or be courteous to other players in game?

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I just think we're all bored at work and the only reason we're here to beat this dead horse instead of watching Netflix/YouTube or playing a mobile game is because our phones are too poor to do either of those things and the forums are one of things our little handlets can barely handle.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

If dps/healer are pulling mobs you're going too slow as a tank, honestly who cares that much lmao I just take the aggro and deal with it.

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Not always. I was in Dead Ends last night. The healer ran ahead constantly from the very moment the circle dropped into mobs before they could even see what the tank was going to pull.

They zoned into the second area after the first boss before everyone else and already had mobs on them (that they didn't bother to bring back) before the tank could even finish zoning. It took the tank a second. The healer died and I laughed IRL. Instant karma.

Maybe instead of encouraging any lone wolf behavior from any role in groups, we encourage team members to be aware of each other and move together as a unit.

There is no grounds where they can't pull that I cannot. I do wall to wall pulls, I don't need them to pull ahead of me. It's pretty patronizing and rude to pull ahead of the tank when there is no actual benefit to it.

However.

If the tank is thickheaded about pulling single packs, specially when it's regardless of the healer assurance about the safety of the tank, and tries to force everyone else into a slower pace irrationally, then he shouldn't complain when the rest of the party refuses to abide by the tank rules.

Less "YPYT is toxic", more "trying to set the pace for the rest of the party to your own preference is toxic".

A good group works in unison . If anything falters its not just on the DPS

The DPS should run with the tank within a few feet , the healer a little behind but it doesn't really matter (think diamond formation) but if you move closely to each other accidental body pulls can be grabbed by a tank faster if your running together . Generally the way we are funnelled along corridors/walkways DPS generally dont have to use their range attacks to help the tank yet they can do


The tank fails the group if it allows enemies to continually attack the DPS or healer roles in the party resulting in one or more of them dying , regardless if the DPS/healer body or ranged pulled enemies that tank stopped too far away from . If the DPS are over doing it and the tank and healer are struggling due to nerves , internet performance , or lack of experience ( it happens to us all BUT WE MUST LEARN and ENDURE IT) then the persons behind the DPS characters are at fault for not accessing the situation and making matter worse , unless if the tank and healer are comfortable and complacent DPS should help grab as much and burn them down once brought to the tank , if tank hasn't already run at the new threat already after the previous pull was dealt with.

The DPS fail the group if they are so slow at using their DPS abilities properly that the tank takes and soaks up too much damage over a longer period of time due to enemies taking too long to die, for its own mitigation tools to be rotated effectively and this then places stress on the healer. DPS fail the healer when they are clumsy and fail mechanics causing them to take unnecessary damage , which should improve with combat experience, if not they are failing the healer.

The healer fails the tank , if it sleeps on its fast recovery utility's if the above scenarios are not in play , and it fails the group if it refuses to contribute to the damage of the pull thus making the time to kill longer and increases the damage the tank soaks for each damage GCD not used.
Tanks do not need to be constantly healed , they just need to be kept alive. This means healers have plenty of GCDs to use for damage instead of healing when healing is not required.

When you all move together and all use the mandatory rotations of your spell/ability set then a few pulls by DPS here and there wont effect much . Check you r surroundings . Big pulls in Antitower should be the norm ( it usually is ) , pulling all the dragons in the first few corridors and rooms to the first boss in Stone Vigil (lvl41) is a terrible move and will kill everyone with the sheer lack of utility synced or not tanks and healers have and dps with basic aoe

"You pull, you tank" is a unwritten Rule among MMORPG players to make sure, that its always the Tank who declares which Target gets killed first, for the obvious reason of having the highest Defense values.

In some Games, you genuinely need to plan your Pulls if you wish to progress and if some DPS or Healer thinks to cut out of line by breaking this Rule, they have to learn things the hard way, since it not only makes the fight more chaotic, it also can turn a fight into a "almost win" situation where expensive ressources or long CD got burned, making other People wait until Ressources are avaiable again or until death penalties are worn off.

In FFXIV, this isnt applied much outside of Deep Dungeons and some of the Coils/Alexander Trials on min ilvl, but the gist of all this, is that Tanking, is a Tanks Job, and pulling, is also a Tanks Duty. Just as you dont want to be critisized for your DPS or Healing performance, Tanks shouldnt be critisized by the way they pull stuff, therefore, if you think youre a special Snowflake by cutting out of Line,

You Pull, you Tank.

That is all there is to it.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

That's a silly idea, why would by default assume that every tank is a petty child?

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Please don't put words in my mouth. I only allow food and men after a good date to go in there.

For real though, I'm not. I'm saying that the potential risk of halting the party and wasting everyone's time isn't worth the few seconds you save by pulling.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Skiros is actually right here. If the DPS pulls, and the tank doesn't take the aggro off them for whatever reason, it's the HEALER is the one that pays the price for the tank's decisions.

Healers naturally generate aggro from healing on ALL mobs. It doesn't matter if they heal the tank or the DPS, they simply generate aggro from all mobs by healing in general. Plus, a large number of their skills are AoE heals, so that quadruples their aggro generation. A good healer will try to keep everyone alive regardless, because more DPS = safer and higher damage output => enemies die faster, so there will be less total damage and healer won't risk running low on healing resources in a pull.

If the tank doesn't take aggro, that means the tank would:
1. Be burdening your healer by having them heal a second target and risk them dying immediately after the mobs pop the DPS like a balloon because all the aggro transfers over to the healer
2. Risk having the a good healer steal aggro from the DPS and end up tanking enemies - burdening the healer more by having them be forced to heal both the tank and themselves, as well as any AoE the party steps on.
3. force the healer to not heal or use their healing skills to avoid generating aggro (a.k.a. not play their role) - in which you affect their gameplay by making them a useless cheerleader or a gimped DPS...


In all 3 instances, the tank also became a burden to the healer by making their job more difficult to keep the team alive and prevent a wipe. If the healer dies or cannot perform their job, the tank risk wiping the party and slowing down the team's progress. So yeah, the tank would be 100% at fault no matter how you look at it.

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The sensible thing for the healer to do in this situation is avoid healing the DPS until a tank has aggro. It's much easier to recover by having to raise one DPS than taking that aggro, going splat, the rest of the party going splat, and then everyone having to waste time getting back to that point to continue on. There may be tanks who don't take aggro on purpose but there are also tanks not doing it on purpose. They may not see it in the rush, they may have been afk for a second, their cat was on fire, whatever. If we as healers don't see the tank react then we should expect action on our part is going to get unwanted aggro and possibly death and it will cause less strain on the party to just let the person die.

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Originally Posted by Illmaeran

Call me old school, but it's a good thing. If a DPS goes ahead and pulls things when I'm not ready to grab them, then it's on that player to handle them until I can. I appreciate courteous pulling, but too often the people who are doing it just rush ahead and go full-out which makes it more difficult to snag everything. When this happens, I'll use my normal attack rotation appropriate for the type of pull, but won't provoke off the DPS. If I happen to grab threat, great, if not, they pull, they deal with it.

I save Provoke for stragglers I miss on a pull or when the healer's got a friend that's too clingy.

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Agreed!
Call me old school too, but I remember a thing called tank etiquette.

I see tons of posts about players not knowing how to do their jobs, but how are they supposed to learn if you don't give them the chance?
Some people actually want to learn how to tank without being thrown into a situation where they now have to try to regain aggro from overzealous dps or healers .

If you want to run ahead and pull all the mobs and control the pace of the dungeon, then be a tank. Otherwise, go at their pace.
I said my peace.

As someone who has tanked a lot for the better part of the last two years, I'm confused how people even manage to get ahead of the tank and pull mobs for them. Are ya'll frequently afking or something?

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Originally Posted by Tyjacon

I see tons of posts about players not knowing how to do their jobs, but how are they supposed to learn if you don't give them the chance?.

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LOL, right? I popped into roulettes recently on GNB. I'm not the best GNB and was rusty from when I had played it last and gotten it to 80. But I'm not gonna get things down without practice. Got Babil which I was not expecting but I don't drop my ilevel to limit my dungeons and even though I was a bit O_O, I rolled with it. Warned the team I'm shaky. Tried to take pulls at a level I felt wasn't going to wipe the party. Sage Rescued me into more mobs. My health is going down fast. I hit the OH SH- button and they scream at me not to Superbolide with a Sage because they can't get tanks back up as fast. Then....why not listen when someone in the group communicates they may have a weak spot and the team might need to adjust a bit?