Who said this and can it apply to healers?

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Originally Posted by Toystore

By trying to force your playstyle, you actively make it impossible for pure healers to get theirs. Whereas if we have ours and there's hybrid functionality for yours as a dps with assists and light heals, you can still play without infringing on us. In other words, you're projecting on me exactly what you're doing. You're a bad faith actor, and you don't even deserve this reply.

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Me disagreeing with you doesn’t make me a bad faith actor, but you seem to have the mentality of a child as evidenced by your responses.

The fact is, healers have long be at liberty to play as “pure healers” in this game in the majority of content available. You’re playing suboptimally, but most things, including a good number of savage fights don’t require perfect play.

The only area you may get significantly pushback are the hardest savage fights and ultimates. Shocking I know...people doing that content want those willing to do more than the bare minimum.

So yeah...you’re advocating for everyone to be brought down to your level, and it’s annoying.

Or just give healers good dps kits. I used to love playing SCH because it had alot of SMN in it. Now it has a shell of its former dps kit and that has pushed me away from the job. I still have to level WHM which people are saying is better than SCH/AST, hopefully its a good experience otherwise I wont be healing at all this expansion and will stay with tank and dps.

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Originally Posted by Toystore

On the flip side I think you guys are out of touch with the reality of the situation. The solution of 'more dps' is at natural odds with healing. Think of it like a lever with a fulcrum. The more dps, the less healing. That's why people call that solution the 'green dps' solution. It's incredibly frustrating because you already have a role. This is all we have as healers so when you push this solution it aggravates and annoys us to no end.

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You're the one out of touch with reality. There is no "healer fulcrum" as you put it: More healing allows us more DPS. More DPS allows us to finish phases and fights before the tanks run out of cooldowns. One supports the other. The only thing that makes us do less healing is the encounter design itself which, oh my gosh, HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER I DECIDE TO DPS OR NOT.

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Originally Posted by Toystore

There are plenty of solutions that don't involve dps. 'Green dps' refers to the crowd that absolutely won't accept anything in their downtime other than dpsing filler. Rotations, more skills, stuff that puts more actions on the opposite end of the fulcrum when there's already a role that is specifically designed for players that want to do that.

I personally think the biggest logical mistake people are making is this ADHD obsession with ABC. ABC would have gotten you laughed out of older MMOs. Classic WoW had the mp/5 rule for every 5 seconds you weren't casting you would regenerate a certain amount of mp in combat.

ABC is such a false premise. People doesn't understand that inertia is something. Vanilla WoW utilized the value of the inertia where you stand still and monitor the fight by providing bonus MP regen if you could be smart enough with your triage to go 5 seconds without casting. I'm not saying the solution is a 5 second window, but ABC is just inane folly that really annoys me when people bring it up like it's somehow just natural truth.

Something as simple as what FFXI did where every tick of rest restores more hp/mp than the tick before it and the ticks increase as you don't cast would go a long way in that. There's PLENTY of ways to improve healers. But DPS is just a non starter for a lot of people, myself included. I do it and tolerate it because it's not the end of the world, but I do want to see it gone from the play paradigm because it's annoying and not fun in the slightest. Think of it like patting your head and rubbing your stomach. They require two separate axes of attention for offense and triage/reaction to damage management. Attention to one briefly interferes with the other and it plays extremely schizophrenic.

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Your solution is to have players do absolutely nothing because you can't stand the thought of a healer sullying their hands with DPS. Nay, don't throw a DoT out, that sort of peasant work is for the help, you are there to sit around on your laurels and sip wine while everyone else toils for the entirety of the fight.

Regenerating MP during downtime works in older MMOs because they are slower, resource-driven games. Modern MMOs are more mechanics-driven, with the idea that you dodge AoEs and perform mechanics to reduce incoming damage with little to no downtime between encounters.

Not to mention, this sort of change would require a DRASTIC RETOOLING of how the entire game functions. Should caster DPS also be required to /heal for a few minutes between fights? There are many fights where I can currently get through them with literally no MP spent on healing whatsoever, so every healer would need to be redesigned from the ground up to overall have drastically lower potency and higher MP costs across the board. Then of course these fights would need to be looked at and rebalanced to ensure that it's still even possible to do these with our drastically lower healing output and emaciated MP pool. Every. Single. Fight. Would need to be manually checked over and adjusted to acommodate a change of this size. You seriously think that's realisitic? Oh, but what about solo instance fights where you're expected to deal damage? We can't have that, guess healer's going to need to be some secondary class that can't go through the MSQ.

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Originally Posted by Toystore

This is the last response you in particular are getting. I judged you 100% correctly. And the only reason you are getting this response is because I'm not letting you try to throw around your weight as if it counts for some long experience. I've been healing as a dwarf priest before TBC. Since Molten Core (fear ward for the dog and Onyxia was great) so I guess that means my love for the role still supersedes yours.

My very first point in the very first post you passively aggressively snipped instead of quoting when you gave your reply addresses how your style actively infringes upon pure healers with the example of the responsibility fulcrum. By trying to force your playstyle, you actively make it impossible for pure healers to get theirs. Whereas if we have ours and there's hybrid functionality for yours as a dps with assists and light heals, you can still play without infringing on us. In other words, you're projecting on me exactly what you're doing. You're a bad faith actor, and you don't even deserve this reply.

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You're the one trying to force your playstyle on others. You're demanding that the healer role only allow for pure, unsullied healing, with absolutely no damage done in the role whatsoever, with such a limited MP pool that there is absolutely no margin for error so we're not tempted by having spare MP that may possibly be used for other purposes. That anyone who deigns to even consider doing something so crass as hitting a monster be relegated to the DPS role. Maybe if they're lucky they have some healing abilities, which surely will be needed with how nerfed healers will have to be in your grand plan.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

The entire point of having multiple roles in a game is to minimize the combat interactions one does not find fun and maximize what they do.

In this regard, FF14 absolutely needs a healer focused on buffing and support actions.

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You are correct, but the problem is for a system like that to truly work the developers balance has to be on point. Where the rdps does provided by one does not outweigh the pdps provided by one healer while still being able to meet the healing requirments. If that balance cannot be met the community will always find the most optimal group and even though most do not even play at the level required to each those theoretical numbers people will still exclude certain roles and SE has shown a history of not taking to kindly to this mindset.

Sadly SE really has to bite the bullet and do what they did with tanks and just own up to the fact tanks are just red dps, that is if they ever want to reach a point where they can balance healers. Or SE accepts that certain classes will be excluded from play due to a stigma that does not even pertain to most people for the sake of unique playstyles.

Either way SE has a choice to make and they have to pick which side of players they will side with and that choice will determine the outcome of healer balance. SE for far too long has tried to cater to both sides and just has not worked.

Granted sure they could also just balance them perfectly but that is unrealistic.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Either way SE has a choice to make and they have to pick which side of players they will side with and that choice will determine the outcome of healer balance. SE for far too long has tried to cater to both sides and just has not worked.

Granted sure they could also just balance them perfectly but that is unrealistic.

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This honestly aggravates me the most. I don't put the blame on the players. I put the blame on SE. That said I'll cut out toxic players that are too far gone to meet in the middle and aren't making the situation any better, but the fault of the blame lies squarely on SE. Since 2.0 they've danced around this when numerous people (myself being one) brought this up during the darklight gearing era. They chose to ignore it and try to play the middle and it's made no one happy.

They continued to show how unequipped they were to deal with this kind of topic when Yoshi P said that healer dps wasn't going to be factored into Alexander. Just that level of response itself proves he has no clue how MMO sociology works and how you can't just say something is intended and then expect the meta to adhere to that.

They need to take a stance. Really take a stance. This middle thing doesn't work. A utopian vision where Yoshi P says 'don't worry healer dps isn't factored into savage' is useless platitude and is just not how online RPG psychology works.

Nobody is saying healers shouldnt heal, but, as a scholar main myself, the reason people want more interesting dps is because the healing requirements are still as braindead easy as they've always been. 80% of the time you dont need to heal, so what do you do when nobody needs heals? You dps. People want a rotation because spamming 1 button is boring, I may as well play on an Atari controller. This problem is especially apparent if you play any content pre-shadowbringers. Play any level 60 dungeon on scholar and you tell me you dont need YouTube or Netlfix or something to keep you occupied, you cant.

Personally speaking, I love the dps aspect of healing, it was so interesting and fresh to me, I love the idea if an MMO combat medic. Yeah, I'll kiss the booboos away, but I'll also shoot the person who gave you the booboos.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

This problem is especially apparent if you play any content pre-shadowbringers. Play any level 60 dungeon on scholar and you tell me you dont need YouTube or Netlfix or something to keep you occupied, you cant. .

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And people grossly overestimate the amount of fun the non-healers have in that same content.

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Originally Posted by Toystore

On the flip side I think you guys are out of touch with the reality of the situation. The solution of 'more dps' is at natural odds with healing. Think of it like a lever with a fulcrum. The more dps, the less healing. That's why people call that solution the 'green dps' solution. It's incredibly frustrating because you already have a role. This is all we have as healers so when you push this solution it aggravates and annoys us to no end.

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Dead mobs do no damage. The faster they die, the less damage overall they do and the less healing is required.

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As a healer main, I play the role because I want to heal. I do not particularly want a DPS rotation, if I wanted to deal with rotations I'd play a DPSes. I go to healer for something different. That said, FFXIV as it stands facilitates healing jobs very poorly. There are some key problems you can point out in just the theory of healing:

1. As Healers get stronger they reduce how much they need to heal. With better equipment and stronger heals, they invalidate their own job by making the amount of time they need to dedicate to healing smaller and smaller. Whereas the bigger numbers from DPS rotations don't affect the rotations themselves and Tanks can mitigate and take more attacks, the natural progression of healing for Healers means they just heal less.

2. The necessity of Healers is reduced if other roles get better (both statistically and mechanically) at the game. Meaning, if DPSes do better and have good equipment, less healing is necessary. If Tanks are mitigating and have good equipment, less healing is necessary. The interplay between the roles is nuanced, for instance a good Healer means Tanks need to mitigate less, but this relationship is not balanced, because DPS is emphasized more amongst all the roles.

These two aspects starkly differentiate Healers from the other roles and need to be considered when crafting a more dedicated healing role. However tackling these aspects require a shift in overall game and encounter design that would better facilitate balance between the roles.

1. A more balanced interaction between the roles would require removing mitigation options from Tanks and giving them to healers. This loss in functionality can be offset by refocusing Tanks to focusing on gaining and retaining a boss' attention. For instance enimity can be harder to maintain with skills dedicated to managing it, and specific attacks bosses use on other players that the tank needs to interrupt.

2. Damage needs to be more unpredictable and harder to avoid. A good team should not reduce the healers' job, rather a good team should be able to do riskier maneuvers wherein a strong Healer can help by contributing strong heals. This would necessitate encounters be designed to damage lots of players, at non-lethal levels and include more mechanics where players need to be full health, say, randomly targetted players taking a lot of damage with very little tells.

Of course just these two suggestions would come with a whole host of other subtle alterations to make work and neither of these are realistic, I'm just offering discussion and my own thoughts on the matter. I am not quite happy with the state of healers, but I'm more happy now than I was in Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

And people grossly overestimate the amount of fun the non-healers have in that same content.

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I'm not saying it's all sunshine and rainbows for any class, but damn, they're hitting more than 1 button. Is that too much to ask for? To be able to press multiple buttons in a modern game?