Blue Mage might actually be a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Oh and one other thing:

This screams of entitlement. Just saying. Theyre not slapping you in the face because ONE thing in the game isnt being implemented the way you want. Its not a slap for everyone. Its SE trying to do two things at once. They want to give the players BLU as true to specs as possible. Doing so means they know it cant be balanced correctly into end game without it being OP (and therefore a must take), or without greatly dumbing it down. The second thing they want to do is give us stuff to do in game that ISNT end game prog. Particularly being able to do stuff during slow times in the game.

And all the knee jerk outrage boils down to people not seeing exactly what SE is trying to give people. Theyre trying to give you more stuff tod o that isnt end game prog. And people are throwing it back in their face and throwing a bit of a tantrum because "MUH BLUE MAGE ISNT IN END GAME RAID! DEVS ARE SO STUPID AND ARE SPITTING ON US! F THIS GAME! UNSUBBED!"

Like holy hell. If you dont like it, thats OK. But it comes off as entitled to get so upset about something that isnt even in the game yet. I am willing to hazard that almost everyone whos complaining hard about he whole BLU thing will ultimately play it and say "Yeah, it was aiite" (if not fun).

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First, do you read context?

Second. IDGAF about Blue Mage personally. I'm not a caster main, nor do I have a caster side-job leveled. I've never been a particular fan of Blue Mage in other games, and in fact my favorite version of Blue Mage was the Enemy Skill materia in FF7. I've always found them to be gimmicky and underpowered (never a real fan of RDM for the same reason, though it's less gimmicky and usually just underpowered). So I probably wouldn't level it either way. The only entitlement I'll claim is that we should have been given a job that can participate in all content.

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Originally Posted by JBee

Let's say you 36 BLU and want to run a dungeon for exp. Your highest available is Cutter's Cry. Your only way to run that dungeon is to find 3 other people willing to run it. Since you are not in a roulette, if your friend the 64 DRK goes, they will get next to nothing for their time, other than the feel goods of helping. Which that's all well and fine, sure. But no in game incentive - since the level is so far below them it would be adding a teaspoon of water to a bowl full. There are people out there who would be willing yes, but if you thought queueing as a dps took forever, this will be potentially much, much worse. Same for trials, but instead of 3 people, there are 7. At least with trials there is some interest - people going for ponies and crafting items - something. As for LotA? Good luck if it's even at all possible.

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Let me reword this:

Let's say you 36 RDM and want to run a dungeon for exp. Your highest available is Cutter's Cry. Your best bet to run that dungeon is to find 3 other people willing to run it, since you do not want to use roulette and get stuck in a lower lvl dungeon like Sastasha. If your friend the 64 DRK goes, they will get next to nothing for their time, other than the feel goods of helping. Which that's all well and fine, sure. But no in game incentive - since the level is so far below them it would be adding a teaspoon of water to a bowl full. There are people out there who would be willing yes, but if you thought queuing as a dps took forever, this will be potentially much, much worse. Same for trials, but instead of 3 people, there are 7. At least with trials there is some interest - people going for ponies and crafting items - something. As for LotA? Good luck if it's even at all possible.

This, btw, is build around speculation. Given that they do not think the game can be balanced in regards to BLU, it would suggest the class is actually a lot stronger and built more in line for solo content. Meaning, you will have access to skills and abilities from Monsters that would enable you to solo dungeons. I would imagine that soloing everything as BLU would be harder to do, but it is not impossible. There is also the speculation that the only means of gaining exp effectively will be dungeons. We do not know if this will be the case or not. Again, this is an issue of seeing how it operates on implementation.

Also, this actually might encourage more people to build stronger FCs and socialization for the simple fact that running content with FC members is easier to manage than pugging things on PF, or on DF. But then again, as I said, I imagine that the class is designed to solo the game if you find the appropriate monster skills and are a good player yourself.

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Originally Posted by JBee

I know you meant Blue Mage, but having used the Black Mage acronymn, just imagine - imagine if black mage was just being released now and hadn't been in game this whole time..... and you couldn't go into roulettes or current content with it. Instead you had to scour Eorzea for runes for your spells that you could then use to complete in the Thaumaturgical Workshop of Alchemy and Science. Use those runes to learn more runes, unlocking a series of mini game puzzles with a leaderboard system.

That concept may sound neat to someone - and the content in itself might be - but that doesn't change the disappointment for all those nukers out there who had their heart set on Black Mage being their go to job because that's the job they enjoyed the most in previous games. Even if it's not quite right, it's still their go to.

It's not all about how people can't end game raid - they can't play the parts of the game the vast majority of people are playing at.

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No, the issue ultimately with your analogy is that the game would be lacking a "Nuker" and implementing a solo class system that was a Nuker would be silly. It would also be silly if they didnt have a heavy healer like WHM and implemented one as a solo class.

The trouble with BLU is that the uniqueness of its concept means that implementing it effectively would either mean dumbing down the concept (and making it compete design wise with RDM, SMN, and BLM), or keeping it as is and making it OP and a must pick for any end game content. The way I see it, if they did dumb it down, the criticism wouldve been "Yeah, this is a watered down version of the class I wanted. It's boring to play and not all that different from 'x'". So SE decided to keep it truer to its concept, while giving us stuff to do that isnt end game prog.

I actually think that is probably the smarter choice. But we'll have to see how it actually works in practice. If it sucks, Im sure there will be changes. Wont be ideal. But its not the end of the world. If its good, then theres no need to complain.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

First, do you read context?

Second. IDGAF about Blue Mage personally.

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You apparently do if youre saying its a slap in the face.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I'm not a caster main, nor do I have a caster side-job leveled. I've never been a particular fan of Blue Mage in other games, and in fact my favorite version of Blue Mage was the Enemy Skill materia in FF7. I've always found them to be gimmicky and underpowered (never a real fan of RDM for the same reason, though it's less gimmicky and usually just underpowered). So I probably wouldn't level it either way. The only entitlement I'll claim is that we should have been given a job that can participate in all content.

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Your last sentinent is the problem. You are arguing that all classes must be able to participate in all content.

But as you should know, you cant take a Fisherman to raid. Or any of the Crafters. Or Gatherers.

So not every class can participate in all the content.

And that is fine. Not everything needs to be able to go to Raid to be worthwhile and fun for players. And I specify Raid because OF the content, thats the content that receives the biggest direct impact from the system they proposed. Youll have access to dungeons, Trials, and (as far as I can tell) the bigger raids. It wont be available immediately, but you will have access to them eventually. So what content are you locked out of? End game Prog. Which is what a lot of people immediately complained about.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

Just make a build system like in FFXI, where you could pick spells and choose which role you want to fill.

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But that is what Blue Mage never was in any of FF past titles, Blue is that job that do (may i say almost?) all things at the same time.

It heals great amounts of HP with white wind, it protects everyone with Migthy Guard (and ohgod that thing is OP!) and buff/debuffs/attack with very niche (and Powerful) spells.

You see, Blue do all those things in just one battle. Losing the capacity to do this is saying goobye to a Blue Mage experience and Yoshida said he wanted the players to feel this in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by MOthe

But that is what Blue Mage never was in any of FF past titles, Blue is that job that do (may i say almost?) all things at the same time.

It heals great amounts of HP with white wind, it protects everyone with Migthy Guard (and ohgod that thing is OP!) and buff/debuffs/attack with very niche (and Powerful) spells.

You see, Blue do all those things in just one battle. Losing the capacity to do this is saying goobye to a Blue Mage experience and Yoshida said he wanted the players to feel this in FFXIV.

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You can say the same things about SMN and RDM, both in older games are very similar to BLU in regards to what they can do, a SMN could heal with a summon, tank with a summon, buff with a summon etc, RDM could replace both a BLM and WHM since it does both. And yet when they were put into the game they were given set rotations. Were people mad about some of the design choices of them? Sure! But they're still fully playable jobs that can used in ALL content.

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Originally Posted by MOthe

But that is what Blue Mage never was in any of FF past titles, Blue is that job that do (may i say almost?) all things at the same time.

It heals great amounts of HP with white wind, it protects everyone with Migthy Guard (and ohgod that thing is OP!) and buff/debuffs/attack with very niche (and Powerful) spells.

You see, Blue do all those things in just one battle. Losing the capacity to do this is saying goobye to a Blue Mage experience and Yoshida said he wanted the players to feel this in FFXIV.

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In FFVIII quistis didn't only use blue magic (blu magic spells were limit breaks) and no, there are no rules stating that blu should be everything in every fight.

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Originally Posted by Shadowshinra

You can say the same things about SMN and RDM, both in older games are very similar to BLU in regards to what they can do, a SMN could heal with a summon, tank with a summon, buff with a summon etc, RDM could replace both a BLM and WHM since it does both. And yet when they were put into the game they were given set rotations. Were people mad about some of the design choices of them? Sure! But they're still fully playable jobs that can used in ALL content.

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The thing wiht Summoner is it was split into two. You can heal as scholar (just a healer version of Summoner), and you do have a Tank Egi as Summoner. Its limited to the design restrictions of the game at large.

Then you have to also consider BLU. Everyone likes to compare it to RDM or SMN or BLM. But in reality, its concept is far from it.

SMN has you fight with summons (to a limited extent), it does this. It uses Dots and Nukes to damage. BLM is just a nuker/sustained damage. RDM is a little bit of a hybrid. Primarily DPS with some party utilities (VerCure and VerRaise or whatever theyre called).

They do echo some of the initial design concepts but theyre all hamstringed by balance concerns.

BLU doesnt 'technically' have its own skill set, and is sold on the concept of learning monster skills and being extremely flexible. If they were to try and make it fall in line, what would they need to do? Limit the scope of monster skills and limit the scope of its damage. This would likely result in it competing with BLM, SMN, and RDM from a design stand point. No matter how you dumb its kit down, it will compete with a previous class and end up being a 'reskinned' version of that class. Except rather than learning skills from a npc, its just a monster. As what was pointed out, the ability to custom build your BLU to be anything (Tank, Support, DPS) is flawed in that allowing that concept to be in the game mainstream would inevitably break it. And teh amount of dumbing down it would need would make it essentially a reskinned version of pre-existing classes.

It just wouldnt pan out ultimately.

I'm starting to get the feeling that many people defending the current BLU on know it by it's reputation in 11. The ONLY thing that makes a blue mage different is using monster abilities as spells. They could have very easily done this with the current game and allowed it to be balanced.

A good example would be jobs quests requiring you to go fight a move that uses the ability you are after and said ability being given to you afterwards.

Even the current way you learn abilities as BLU could work. They would just have to change how some of them work when you cast them ( a lore reason for this could be that since the ability is unnatural to our physicalogical body it is weakened or distorted a bit). Every FF is set in a different world and jobs don't always act the same as they do in past games.

Many of us are mad because we see this as something that will be cool for a little bit once we get to Max lvl and get the all the abilites waht more is there to do?

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

The thing wiht Summoner is it was split into two. You can heal as scholar (just a healer version of Summoner), and you do have a Tank Egi as Summoner. Its limited to the design restrictions of the game at large.

Then you have to also consider BLU. Everyone likes to compare it to RDM or SMN or BLM. But in reality, its concept is far from it.

SMN has you fight with summons (to a limited extent), it does this. It uses Dots and Nukes to damage. BLM is just a nuker/sustained damage. RDM is a little bit of a hybrid. Primarily DPS with some party utilities (VerCure and VerRaise or whatever theyre called).

They do echo some of the initial design concepts but theyre all hamstringed by balance concerns.

BLU doesnt 'technically' have its own skill set, and is sold on the concept of learning monster skills and being extremely flexible. If they were to try and make it fall in line, what would they need to do? Limit the scope of monster skills and limit the scope of its damage. This would likely result in it competing with BLM, SMN, and RDM from a design stand point. No matter how you dumb its kit down, it will compete with a previous class and end up being a 'reskinned' version of that class. Except rather than learning skills from a npc, its just a monster. As what was pointed out, the ability to custom build your BLU to be anything (Tank, Support, DPS) is flawed in that allowing that concept to be in the game mainstream would inevitably break it. And teh amount of dumbing down it would need would make it essentially a reskinned version of pre-existing classes.

It just wouldnt pan out ultimately.

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Saying that a job would be too similar to another just feels wrong, if that were the case they should just stop adding jobs altogether since they can only do so many things right?
I'm not saying BLU should be entirely customisable, that misnomer about the job has come from FF11. BLU has and always will be about learning and using monster skills and that's it. And when it comes down to it, out of the vast number of blue magic, how many were actually used by the average player in the FF games (I'm not counting 11 in this) you'd likely find around.. 10-24ish? which so happens to be the around the number of skills you could use in a rotation + buffs.

Sure there is the masked carnival but will it be worth doing more than once? And do we really trust SE to keep updating it in a timely manner (still waiting on more egi glamours)?

Sorry for the many posts and if they seem disconnected doing this at work between things on a phone