What if we got the Sub-Job System in FFXIV?

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Originally Posted by Delmontyb

It means that it's a system that's well known and understood, been in several games in many different forms. :)

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it's not well understood if it has many forms, which form do you want cause many forms of it are awful in MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Delmontyb

As a quick example. Imagin if you play WTM, and white mage could pick 1 of 3 jobs to sub job, rather then all 15... each "sub job" acts as a path, that has the skills, traits, etc to take. Helps make balance easier.

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that's almost like the old system and it sucked. what are you saying about it that will actually be better?

Slightly off-topic, but I'd love to play as a DPS DRK or PLD. But there's enough DPS as it is, and not enough tanks.

I would particularly love the idea. It would give a lot or replayability to all classes.

Will not listen to the smarties trying to talks as if they were in possession of the only truth, because this done correctly would make this game awesome.

But before doing this other things should be done, like adding an elements system (lightning, water, etc...), skill combos (aka skillchains), several weapon types for every class, and many other things.

Also turning jobs into actual classes (rogue, thaumaturge, conjurer, etc...)

And so on. I feel like we will see some surprises in Las Vegas coming this November.

I am against the subjob system basically because it's nothing more than a numbers game, once someone finds and posts the optimal combinations it's "limitless diversity and range" are gone and players doing odd combinations will be ousted, it was a big thing in ffxi that caused those curious players doing whm/war to be seen as abominations and failures thus not getting into any parties.

If we do a generic "Subjob is 1/2 level of main job" thing for such a system, literally EVERY single physical dps and both PLD/WAR will spec DRK for Darkside. Permanent 20% damage up with zero downside (Only PLD would even be marginally affected, but even then they would have access to bloodweapon) + Bloodweapon for extra haste on every physical job just destroys every other choice. It's not even an illusion of choice, it'd simply be one thing flat out crushes every other choice, and you'd be laughed at for not having said choice.

I'd rather they take time to give all the current jobs more interesting toolkits and rotations than force a system that will 99% likely be incredibly hard to balance.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

If we do a generic "Subjob is 1/2 level of main job" thing for such a system, literally EVERY single physical dps and both PLD/WAR will spec DRK for Darkside. Permanent 20% damage up with zero downside (Only PLD would even be marginally affected, but even then they would have access to bloodweapon) + Bloodweapon for extra haste on every physical job just destroys every other choice. It's not even an illusion of choice, it'd simply be one thing flat out crushes every other choice, and you'd be laughed at for not having said choice.

I'd rather they take time to give all the current jobs more interesting toolkits and rotations than force a system that will 99% likely be incredibly hard to balance.

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This is good too. Letting each job play different roles would be nice. DPS astrologian would be awesome.

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Originally Posted by Kaminto

I am against the subjob system basically because it's nothing more than your a numbers game, once someone finds and posts the optimal combinations it's "limitless diversity and range" are gone and players doing odd combinations will be ousted, it was a big thing in ffxi that caused those curious players doing whm/war to be seen as abominations and failures thus not getting into any parties.

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I think that's short changing the system a little really.

Aside from a few very niche situations, WHM/WAR was an abomination in terms of the overwhelming majority of group play situations going. However I frequently went with a crazy melee Subjob to get Dancing Edge on BRD when farming to help my kill rate along (I think it was War as well tbh?). In actual group play, subbing RDM, BLM, SMN, SCH and occasionally even BRD were all very viable options back when I played. I ensured I had all options open to me and routinely made good use of all of them depending on the content and my group.

Some combinations were frowned upon not because they weren't meta, but because they were legitimately pointless and usually indicated that that player was going to be a detriment to the party. A WHM standing there meleeing in a merit, HNM or exp situation isn't remotely positive and can actually be a problem if they are actually even landing hits in the first place. Not to mention, a WHM that wasn't willing to have a useful sub levelled was also very likely to be problematic in other ways. I'm sorry if you disagree, but that's just how it was.

I do however agree that the subjob system should be approached cautiously. This isn't really a game that offers anything like the variety of combat situations that FFXI had and thus oddball subjob combinations will indeed be devalued as a result meaning the 'meta' is more likely to be rather rigid here than it was in FFXI.

They need to rework their current system for something like that to happen.

while being able to change up your subjob to fit different needs was pretty cool in ffxi

ffxiv went from having subjob-esque cross class skills to removing that and giving all classes a "pick 5 of these 10 to be usable" and now even farther away from subjob with "well all 10 are now usable so whatever, enjoy the loss of unique class animations for nothing"

basically 14 is stepping farther and farther away from anything resembling subjobs, going back that way now would probably require more effort than they'd want to commit while also messing up anything they happened to balance around class skills replacing cross-class skills

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Originally Posted by Kaminto

I am against the subjob system basically because it's nothing more than a numbers game, once someone finds and posts the optimal combinations it's "limitless diversity and range" are gone and players doing odd combinations will be ousted, it was a big thing in ffxi that caused those curious players doing whm/war to be seen as abominations and failures thus not getting into any parties.

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Isn't that what jobs themselves are? Not to mention stats? And any semblance of rotational choice (over varying SkS or SpS breakpoints)?

If optimization is the doom of customization, then we are already doomed, with only Refresh and the Limit Break gauge speed gimmick protecting even half the jobs.