Is this truly wrong?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BluexBird

Gear, potions and padded runs

---

Im sorry but the first two points are just false, logs are very reliant on player ability, not logs or potions, heres a good players alt who has an iLvl of 35x : Cherry Cordial, look her up wherever.

As for potions they make a difference but not that much, they do not make or break a parse, as for padded runs, they are few and inbetween, yes, they exist and it sucks, but they wont make nor break your percentiles, all they break are All Star points which almost nobody cares about.

Its mostly about player ability, thats the first and foremost hurdle for anyone that has low percentiles, saying its about gear, potions or padded runs.....those are just excuses, anyone can get purple with enough work and dedication, regardless of gear or whatever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

The irony is that this all originally started from a friendly competition with a good RDM. I came up numbers wise about 500 short, which spurred me to try it again with SMN, thinking I was hot stuff...and came up even shorter. While I'm positive melds have a bit to do with it, it's more or less that since the last thread, I'm getting worse, even as I'm optimizing my rotations on SMN. I've started sticking with tanking - particularly learning WAR - because I just got too frustrated with trying to improve.

---

The thing with that is that you came up 500 short, against a really good player who has more experience on RDM. There was absolutely nothing to be ashamed of in your play that night. I know, I was healing it. :D

We have people of significantly varying skill levels in our little group, but some of them are really, really good. Comparing yourself to them is like grabbing a hockey stick and comparing yourself to a professional hockey player. If you can even keep up with them you're doing well, although it might not feel like it at the time. It's easy to lose perspective when you only play with people like that and start thinking you're worse than you actually are.

I look at it this way. You were doing 500 less than the other RDM. When we did it this week we didn't have you, and we had DF people doing 2500 less than that RDM instead who were also dying to mechanics that you were handling no problem. We would have greatly preferred to have you with us.

Have you got room for improvement? Sure. So do I! So does almost every single person in that group. Acknowledging that is perfectly healthy. But you're a better RDM than you think you are, and there's no shame in having a lower number than someone else when that number is still more than enough to carry your own weight.

(As others mentioned, we also didn't have a composition that was geared towards getting high parses. No AST, a BLM, two RDMs. That's going to affect the percentile number significantly and has no bearing on how well you play RDM at all. On top of that, it was normal. We don't care if you get orange numbers. We just want to get clears and hang out, and it's more fun to do that with you than without you.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vidu

Yes, thats why I suggest SSS to figure out wether its someones rotation thats a problem or if its mechanics. (afaik SSS is also calculated without party buffs and the like in mind - its basically really telling you wether or not you know the "mechanics" or "rotation" of a class well enough and if you're geared enough to pull the DPS required)

---

Most SSS dummies are overtuned. Remember NIN SSS for Delta? Or MNK this patch? 5500dps to kill that dummy. (Sam was 5660 too!) It was nearly impossible to beat with 4.1's BiS even with pots and food, but plenty of low ilvl monks and sams went and cleared o8s regardless with much less than 5500dps for Clown on wk1. Alexander's SSS was also notoriously bad.

My point is without actually watching someone, it's difficult to pinpoint exactly where the problem is, even with logs.

Edit - IMO SSS should be at least 5 minutes, preferably 9 minutes long. You shouldnt need to alter a proper raid rotation to fit more buffs in a 3 minute dummy fight, when there are no 3 minute fights. At the least it'd be a more accurate dummy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Luin

Most SSS dummies are overtuned. Remember NIN SSS for Delta? Or MNK this patch? 5500dps to kill that dummy. (Sam was 5660 too!) It was nearly impossible to beat with 4.1's BiS even with pots and food, but plenty of low ilvl monks and sams went and cleared o8s regardless with much less than 5500dps for Clown on wk1. Alexander's SSS was also notoriously bad.

---

For my point thats actually even better, because, let me repeat this to you: Its about figuring out wether or not you've got enough knowledge and gear for that fight on the job you're trying the dummy with.
I'm not saying that killing the dummy means that you'll clear the fight.
Or that not killing the dummy means you wont clear the fight or wont do well enough in it.

We've already agreed on fflogs not being a real accurate representation of dps and performance either, at least not as long as you're only looking at rare numbers, because they dont take into account your gear, the party-buffs, how well you dealt with mechanics (that might require you to disengage the boss - for example in my static I'm doing Typhon in O6S. I'm the OT - not sure if our way is ideal, but its how we're doing and clearing the fight for a few weeks now. Works. But also means that I'll lose uptime on the boss), if a SMN/RDM raised someone (which might have saved the group - in my book a person who raises a healer is better than the person who pushs for more DPS, specially if the dead healer leads to a wipe) and so on.

So my whole point is to use the dummy in order to give yourself an idea if you're skill- and gear-wise ready for this content.
If you beat it with or if you're getting at least close to beating it (<5% left), you should be fine in general.
If you're not even getting close to that, you know something is wrong with your rotation or your gear and you can check for that.

On a very basic level I'd say bad parser can come from two things:
Not enough knowledge of the fight - or not good enough at the job (thats meant to include gear and skill).
SSS lets you test wether or not its the later.

I'm not really sure what your issue with the idea of testing that this way is, to be honest.
I've never claimed not beating a dummy means you're to bad for a fight - but I'd dare argue that not getting close to beating a dummy (>20% left) means you're probably not ready for a fight yet. From there you go anf igure out why - so: gear or skill?

I joined a group in the PF on Tuesday that wanted to do o5-7. Joined in with them on Discord. After we cleared o5, I asked if anyone was logging. I felt like I totally crushed it, never did a misclick and managed to nail my elusive jump/other jumps/sprint to keep uptime up time... yet when they read me my #s, I was only at 5k. I was heartbroken, because the week prior I got 4 new pieces of gear.

I simply said to the group, thats gotta be better. And they responded with something surprising.... "We cleared it, you didnt die or get grabbed, who cares"? Before I could reply.... another person in the discord said, "you did better than me and I have better gear, who cares"?... So then I asked "why are you logging"? and they just said they only cared about themselves, for personal benefit, and dont judge others so long as they are clearing

And thats when it dawned on me, no one really SHOULD care, unless you are way under par and/or dying (causing the group to not clear).

I feel like im a pretty good DRG. My logs wont tell you that because of percentiles and such, but I know the rotation, know the fights, have a positive attitude, and lear quick. The gear and numbers will come with time, but for the time being, as long as you are pulling your weight, the numbers shouldnt matter

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nhadaly

Im sorry but the first two points are just false, logs are very reliant on player ability

---

Of course player ability factors into it but given 2 players of equal skill, the one with a significantly lower item level won't stand a chance. It is simple mathematics.
Yes, the gap isn't as ridonculous in XIV as it is in WoW but gear is still of paramount importance.

If you parse yourself as a 350 alt you won't stand any chance against a 370+ that knows what he is doing. Pretending otherwise is ignoring the truth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

I simply said to the group, thats gotta be better. And they responded with something surprising.... "We cleared it, you didnt die or get grabbed, who cares"? Before I could reply.... another person in the discord said, "you did better than me and I have better gear, who cares"?... So then I asked "why are you logging"? and they just said they only cared about themselves, for personal benefit, and dont judge others so long as they are clearing

And thats when it dawned on me, no one really SHOULD care, unless you are way under par and/or dying (causing the group to not clear).

---

Pretty much my stance. I look at the logs 95% in order to assess MY performance.
I only looked at others in depth when we somehow struggled to see whether I could pinpoint any issues and try to help.

Logs are a wonderful diagnostic tool once you get past the %ile / DPS E-peen contest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Granyala

First of all, please read up on mathematics and assess the logging sites in order to understand how these percentiles are derived.

You will quickly notice that FFlogs does NOT take item level into account (for a long time WoWs logging sites also did not do that).
Next up, please realize that the top parses are done by people that AIM for parses and have the support of bored raidgroups that have everything on farm.

As such, unless you wear BiS and are in one of these groups it's virtually impossible to get a 95%+ log.

That being said: if we're not talking about wipe tries (long inactivity crashes your DPS) or a bloody novice stepping into a raid for the first time, 9% or even 50% is BAD. If you and your group play well and you are not too far behind gear wise, you should get some score around the 80% mark.

That being said: Remember that FF-XIV is a "mechanics first" game. It is rare that you are allowed to ignore a given mechanic, soak the damage in order to maximize output.

---

Pretty much this. This late into the raid tier, most people getting 90% or above either already have the tier on farm or are close to it. Either that, or they cleared the fight with an early performance so good that their Historical rating shows them as being at a high percentile for the time period that it was cleared, even though it would only be about 50-60th percentile today.

I'm largely in the latter category with my own O5S/O6S parses, hitting 98th/92nd percentile historical week 2 in ilvl 350 gear (as Bard). My parses since steadily fell due to being stuck on O7S for about 5 weeks (and thus falling behind in gear) and due to my lack of a static until very recently. It also doesn't help that Bard reliance on Dragoon is now so absurd that the mere presence of one contributes about 400-500 extra DPS for the Bard, which is something the developers really need to take a long, hard look at. I've only been able to climb back up to 96th/93rd this week with ilvl 360-370 gear. It took me too long to clear O7S and I've yet to clear O8S, but I have no delusions of ever breaking 90% on either fight.

I also have two historical 100 parses, for the last boss of Rabanastre and for Byakko EX, only because I had the highest recorded DPS of all Bards in the world for both fights during the first two days of release. A similar performance today would only count at around 80th-90th percentile.

https://www.fflogs.com/character/id/120007

There's always a lot of factors to consider, instead of taking the numbers at face value. It's kind of absurd that FFLogs does not have any way to record player ilvl. For instance, Bard is not only possibly the most gear-reliant of all the DPS, it is also by far the most reliant on party comp, due to the nature of how the critical hit stat works for them. No Dragoon and/or Scholar? You're not hitting 90+% this late into the raid tier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nhadaly

Im sorry but the first two points are just false, logs are very reliant on player ability, not logs or potions, heres a good players alt who has an iLvl of 35x. . . .

---

Of course player skill plays a huge role. But if you take two equally skilled players, 1 with full 350 and one with full 370 BiS, the 370 BiS will numerically perform better than the 350 player. With the tier being almost halfway over, more and more players have i370 with their 375 weapons, and take up the top percentiles. They raise the bar that others have to meet to get into the higher percentiles. And yes, some of those oranges are heavily padded to give people pretty front pages, but it is much harder for an individual to get higher percentile parses the later you get into a tier. Just because of sheer competition.

Quote:

---

Its mostly about player ability, thats the first and foremost hurdle for anyone that has low percentiles, saying its about gear, potions or padded runs.....those are just excuses, anyone can get purple with enough work and dedication, regardless of gear or whatever.

---

Again, see above what I said about two equally skilled players in different gear and the discrepancy there will be between them. Some jobs are also heavily reliant on others (BRD/MCH on DRG), and will perform lower than an equally skilled player that has the necessary party comp: a 370 BRD without a DRG will have a lower parse than an equally skilled 370 BRD with a DRG. It's not just player skill that make logs, because a lot of top logs are padded to give pretty numbers, or completely optimized between the entire static to give those perfect runs.

I am an i363 BRD. My last parse on v6s was 52 percentile the night it was uploaded. The time before that (~2 weeks prior) was 90 percentile. The difference in DPS was 5087 (52) and 5752 (90). Why was my percentile so much lower?
-I'm competing against speed runs with BRDs who have their BiS
-I'm competing against optimization runs that Min-Max every GCD
-I also had no DRG, and no AST.

My kill time was actually shorter on the 52nd percentile run, but just the fact that I was competing against players with better gear, and BRDs that have a DRG (which is the biggest hit to a BRD's DPS--I can still get purples with no AST). I did nothing different: same food, same rotation, potted at the normal times, I even had 2 more 370 pieces in the 52nd run. But my lower percentile wasn't due to my lack in skill, but my group's lack of ideal circumstances for BRD and my lack in gear. At most, if I lacked a bit it was because it was the first time I had done V6S since my 90.

Not trying to toot my own horn or saying some god-tier BRD because I've never managed an orange (my highest is 94 on Exdeath), but I can get purples. My blue isn't due to my lack in ability, but other external reasons. They can add up more than you think.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

I'm largely in the latter category with my own O5S/O6S parses, hitting 98th/92nd percentile historical week 2 in ilvl 350 gear (as Bard). My parses since steadily fell due to being stuck on O7S for about 5 weeks and due to my lack of a static until very recently. It also doesn't help that Bard reliance on Dragoon is now so absurd that the mere presence of one contributes about 400-500 extra DPS for the Bard, which is something the developers really need to take a long, hard look at. I've only been able to climb back up to 96th/93rd this week with ilvl 360-370 gear. It took me too long to clear O7S and I've yet to clear O8S, but I have no delusions of ever breaking 90% on either fight.

---

Saito knows the pain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

Keep in mind, I still generally don't ask for my information to get uploaded - they just end up online (I usually check a few hours after my weekly runs).

---

I think what you really need to do is get in touch with a summoner on your server in the 80th+ percentile, and have them look over your logs. It's good to know that you're under-performing because you're not casting enough, or not prioritizing something, but it's even better to know exactly where the mistake happened and why, because it gives you something tangible to work with.

The 9% Phantom Train parse, for example, isn't really indicative of your overall performance. You parsed that low because you didn't use your AOE burst during the adds phase. While you spiked to around 8k there with dots and tri-bind, other summoners spiked to around 30-50k with deathflare/painflare/ahk morn. If you were to go back today with that knowledge you could easily parse much, much higher. A good summoner can point out things to boost your numbers even more, until eventually they become habit and you realize you have become a good summoner.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nhadaly

Im sorry but the first two points are just false, logs are very reliant on player ability, not logs or potions

---

Yes, logs are very reliant on player ability. As in, it doesn't matter if you're ilvl 371 BiS everything, perfect party comp, and chugging pots - if you don't play your class properly, your numbers are still going to end up sucking.

THAT SAID, if all you do is play your class properly, zero deaths, everything lined up, THE PERFECT RUN... if you're running crafted ilvl 350 items, don't use pots, and your party is like... 2 WAR, 2 WHM, 2 BLM, a SAM, and you're the extra DPS... Dude, you can come up with the best rotation in the whole server, you're still not getting close to 90 percentile. Not at this stage, months after the raid has come out. Look how close the brackets are currently. You might just barely break 80, but ask yourself... why bother? Using pots will easily give you the boost you need, assuming your rotations are on point.

And the extra 20 item levels do help A LOT. Stop pretending "it's all skill". Next thing we know, you'll want us to believe the easy DPS increase that comes from getting your ilvl 370 weapon is due to lucky crits. LMAO