Red Mage could use some help.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

The flaming from the other two aside, RDM's damage already reflects its utility, as I've said about half a dozen times. The biggest issue with RDM is that SMN was overtuned.

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Not really, RDM damage/utility even is even worse than BLM right now. Their personal dps is lower than bard/mch while their utility only bring like 200 party dps while mch/bard bring 400+ dps with their utility and even BLM do more than 300 personal dps than than RDM. I dont even play RDM, but I can agree the fact RDM is worst spot damage wise than any other dps job right now. Surely it is good in progress that allow you practice certain phases even if that make boss enrage. But the fact is both jobs need some adjustments.

To me that reflects on BRD MCH being too good, particularly too good when used together, and the need for the upheaval of physical meta and a more pertinent need for "role lock" (i.e. one ranged one caster one melee one auxiliary). This is also exemplified in "power creep" as I think Remedi pointed out several times: everyone complained for BRD/MCH buffs because they thought they were too weak and now they're just OP asf.

Furthermore, the top RDMs had no issues making enrages during deltascape savage progression, myself included. I can't speak from experience in Unending Coil (and definitely you wouldn't catch me dead in there on RDM because #SMNisGod), but I'm quite sure that with well-used Embolden, combos, and potions that the class would be just fine.

And lastly, if not most obviously, any major buff to RDM is just going to put BLM even further under its SUPPOSED "highest damage lowest utility" role (which it already doesn't fulfill), and is a big part of the reason that there is in fact "a line" for buffs, contrary to what dualgunner seems to think.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

The flaming from the other two aside, RDM's damage already reflects its utility, as I've said about half a dozen times. The biggest issue with RDM is that SMN was overtuned.

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Arguing with you is flaming now? What do we call running into other threads posting shit like "Angry bump because RDM want buffs too but I don't want them to have them because BLM needs to be the only people buffed"?

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And not only did the class I like "get the shaft" but it's actually straight up awful and actively shunned by groups. Yours is not.

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Which is absolutely why we can't even have one thread asking for buffs.

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Sure people might want SMNs more than RDMs but last I checked absolutely no one is angry about having a RDM in their group. So yes, here I am complaining that you (all) are upset with your relatively well-balanced job (once again, I do believe Embolden deserves a fix to make it stronger than Devotion), meanwhile other jobs are in blatant and desperate need of help as they are considered useless. Fight me.

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I will fight you, every step you take.

Black Mage has several threads dedicated to its needed buffs. RDM now has one. If you can't handle that, I dunno what to say to you. But wanna know who has even more than BLM? DRK. So if you're gonna continue this stupid crusade, you sit down and wait your damn turn while DRK gets buffed. And then MNK. Then it can finally be your turn.

Daybreak was definitely flaming and your "as if only one job could be worked on at a time" could certainly be interpreted as flaming. And your "quote" of what I said is completely inaccurate.

See once more that MNK is perfectly fine, in fact MNK is already creeping on SAM, and that while DRK could use some help it's not like its actively shunned (see also the world first clear of unending coil).

Once again, nice try on all this, though. Why don't we advocate together the utility aspect of RDM rather than fight over nothing? Do you really not agree that RDM's utility should be the strongest and that SMNs was overtuned? The solution is to fix the utility aspect, not the damage (because power creep). I don't think that is complicated.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Daybreak was definitely flaming and your "as if only one job could be worked on at a time" could certainly be interpreted as flaming. And your "quote" of what I said is completely inaccurate.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Angry bump because there are people thinking that RDM needs help right now, which to be fair it is undertuned now that SMN is a god, but seriously wait your damn turn.

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Yeah. Completely inaccurate.

If you want to take that as flaming, then go ahead. I was merely elucidating what your argument sounds like to others.

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See once more that MNK is perfectly fine, in fact MNK is already creeping on SAM, and that while DRK could use some help it's not like its actively shunned (see also the world first clear of unending coil).

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So? I'll concede a bit on MNK, but DRK has been asking for longer. If we're playing by "sit down and wait your turn", it's not BLM's turn until DRK is buffed.

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Once again, nice try on all this, though. Why don't we advocate together the utility aspect of RDM rather than fight over nothing?

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You're the one who came in here complaining that Red Mage is complaining about anything. You're the one who started spouting off stuff about it needing to be the weakest because of it being a joat, then you backpedaled when I said joat could easily mean it needs to be the highest tuned. You then started talking about it being some sort of "defensive dps"; defensively tuned anything in this game is bad. Ask 3.x PLD and 3.x WHM for more info on that.

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Do you really not agree that RDM's utility should be the strongest and that SMNs was overtuned? The solution is to fix the utility aspect, not the damage (because power creep). I don't think that is complicated.

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I absolutely agree Summoners were overtuned. I disagree that RDM's utility could be considered anywhere near the strongest while Embolden is the only trick in its bag for positive utility, while the rest is negative utility. Small potency buffs, alongside an embolden buff; that's all I think RDM really needs.

This is what killed WoW for me, was the constant complaints about not doing enough DPS or dmg. Look not every class needs to be the top of the DPS charts just because people don't like seeing smaller numbers, while SMN, BRD, etc constantly does more dps. You know what BRD doesn't have? Heals, raise, tether, etc. SMN has a pet, we have better heals. Each job has it's own thing, only thing that needs to change imo is holy and flare which could be AOE.

All this does is create a vicious cycle of nerfing and buffing jobs, unless everyone puts out the exact same damage/dps as the next person, everyone gets a pet, heals, raise, it will just continue on forever but even then it would be well there's no point in picking this job over that job because reasons. If the job is failing to keep up then I can see a change is needed, otherwise leave it alone.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

Look not every class needs to be the top of the DPS charts just because people don't like seeing smaller numbers, while SMN, BRD, etc constantly does more dps.

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we're not trying to make rdm the top dps. As it stands, the argument is that RDM has too little utility for its low damage. We want them to bring its utility in line with its damage, or vice-versa.

Honestly it's a little insulting that you interpret this desire as a childish wish of "my class needs to be the best QQ".

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Originally Posted by JohnnyDevo

we're not trying to make rdm the top dps. As it stands, the argument is that RDM has too little utility for its low damage. We want them to bring its utility in line with its damage, or vice-versa.

Honestly it's a little insulting that you interpret this desire as a childish wish of "my class needs to be the best QQ".

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Forgive me that's not my intentions, but you have to admit whenever a thread like this pops up it's usually dealing with my class/job is broken, it doesn't do enough dmg, it's not doing this.

I guess I fail to understand what people refer to as utility. I always thought utility was raise, heals, etc, if it's not this then I guess I have no idea what you exactly want more of?

Crabs in a bucket, man -_- rdm should offer the best "utility" of the 3 casters and slightly less Dps, Smn should be more Dps less utility and Blm should be most dps least/currently no utility, that's fairly well established right? Rdm need a little bit of a damage buff now that the giddy thrill of prog has worn off and no one needs them to just vomit rez's at everyone. The job needs to remain feeling satisfying and the fact that it seems to be so dissatisfying so soon after it's introduction means that it does need addressing. Don't gotta push other groups of people down just because you feel like your personal class has more pressing issues or you don't personally see the problem.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

I guess I fail to understand what people refer to as utility. I always thought utility was raise, heals, etc, if it's not this then I guess I have no idea what you exactly want more of?

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Again, the issue is that rezzing and healing adds no damage utility unless the party is having severe issues. This is why RDM is a valuable progression Job and becomes less valuable as people stop making mistakes.

I don't see RDM as a top DPS, but they probably shouldn't be below BRD.