Tanks Letting DPS Die

DPS single targeting during an AoE pull is understandably DPS fault. DPS prepulling mobs is understandably DPS fault. DPS spike damage 1.5 seconds into a pull is understandably DPS fault.

But... seriously? You have one job. Tank Stance, Shield Lobe, Flash, Enmity Combo. SE has buffed tank's enmity generation to the moon. You simply fail as a tank, if any DPS can rip hate from you. Where is your pride as tank?!

I never have trouble holding aggro as a tank main, but I also expect my dps to use aggro tools to help out. For example, I can open any exr dungeon boss fight in dps stance on any tank (except war, which I'll just equilibrium and immediately go into deliverance on) if I have a nin in my party. But I've had more than a few nin pugs who refuse to shadewalker/smokescreen no matter how many times I ask, and there's really no reason for that. Help me help you.

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

That said, it's a very subjective situation. The DPS will allways consider it's the tank fault of not enough threat combo [...]

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

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Wow maybe I'm speaking Chinese. Lets give this another shot.
If your tank is in dps stance and capping your DPS because of emnity. OF COURSE he should switch to tank stance/rotation. OF COURSE he should put more effort into building aggro. All this goes without saying.
But if you grab aggro it's on you. There's nothing subjective about that. It's YOUR enmity, it's YOUR management or failure to do so. So yes if your tank is in dps stance building no aggro then you should "just stand there twiddling your fingers". There's -nothing- ludicrous about that. What is ludicrous in your example is that the tank would not switch to tank stance or enmity combo despite you telling him he's capping your dps.

And no there would not be a lot more vote kicks if mobs one shot you because there are a fair amount of mmos (and even some ff14 pulls) where grabbing agro -will- get you killed and you don't see that happening. Instead people actually wait for the tank to build some aggro. However, a tank who refuses to build more enmity when he can easily do so and despite capping his group's dps should (and would) get his ass handed to him.

Again, your aggro, your responsibility. The tank's responsibility is not to cap his group's dps. They're two separate things that work together. So yes, grabbing agro is always the DPS' fault even though it often stems from a poor tanking situation. Varying degrees of good intentions/selfishness from the tank are irrelevant, your responsibilities don't change.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Wow maybe I'm speaking Chinese. Lets give this another shot.
If your tank is in dps stance and capping your DPS because of emnity. OF COURSE he should switch to tank stance/rotation. OF COURSE he should put more effort into building aggro. All this goes without saying.
But if you grab aggro it's on you. There's nothing subjective about that. It's YOUR enmity, it's YOUR management or failure to do so. So yes if your tank is in dps stance building no aggro then you should "just stand there twiddling your fingers". There's -nothing- ludicrous about that. What is ludicrous in your example is that the tank would not switch to tank stance or enmity combo despite you telling him he's capping your dps.

And no there would not be a lot more vote kicks if mobs one shot you because there are a fair amount of mmos (and even some ff14 pulls) where grabbing agro -will- get you killed and you don't see that happening. Instead people actually wait for the tank to build some aggro. However, a tank who refuses to build more enmity when he can easily do so and despite capping his group's dps should (and would) get his ass handed to him.

Again, your aggro, your responsibility. The tank's responsibility is not to cap his group's dps. They're two separate things that work together. So yes, grabbing agro is always the DPS' fault even though it often stems from a poor tanking situation. Varying degrees of good intentions/selfishness from the tank are irrelevant, your responsibilities don't change.

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This 100%. YOUR enmity, YOUR management. Let's give some examples to illustrate.

Tank pulls in DPS stance, 10 iLevels below everyone else. Everyone else pulls hate. EVERYONE ELSE PULLED HATE.... Who is responsible for pulling hate? EVERYONE ELSE. Who is responsible for making it impossible for you to DPS or Heal? THE TANK. The TANK SUCKED! But YOU PULLED HATE.

Tank pulls in Tank stance, immediately switches to DPS stance. iLevel equal. DPS doesn't use enmity mitigation, they pull hate. Who's fault? DPS that didn't use enmity reduction, their enmity, their fault. Tank really didn't do anything wrong in this situation. They COULD have stance danced to get hate back, they COULD have used an enmity combo to get hate back; but they didn't generate that hate for the DPS, the DPS did.

Tank pulls in Tank stance, immediately switches to DPS stance. iLevel equal. DPS uses enmity mitigation, they pull hate. Tank doesn't use enmity rotation to get hate back. Who's fault? DPS's fault, YOUR ENMITY, YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. Tank was being greedy AF and limited YOUR DPS because they were more concerned with THEIR DPS.

Tank pulls in Tank stance, stays in tank stance. Does only enmity combos. iLevel equal. Does 40% less damage than they could be doing, the run takes forever. DPS get tired of how long it's taking and pull ahead; they take hate Tank doesn't see it cause they're busy working out what comes after heavy swing or fast blade and wondering if they have enough tenacity to handle 1 more mob. Who's fault? DPS, they pulled hate. The TANK SUCKED! and you pulled hate.....

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It isn't subjective at all really, well from the points you brought up anyway.

If a tank is clearly undegeared especially when the dps over gear him by a considerable amount of Ilevel. The tank should take that into consideration when establishing hate and switching into DPS stance. The DPS should also be using their aggro dump CDs and if they are and the tanks lose hate , it's objectively the tanks fault.

A BLM that single targets in a multiple mob pull, it's the BLMs fault if they pull hate. No question. Like, wtf are you doing? fire 2? flare? thunder 4? foul? learn your damn class. This goes for any DPS class used by an idiot who thinks trying to attack 1 enemy out of the 10 that are beating on the tank when they have AOE is a good idea.

Nothing subjective here, mate.

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Not, it's not really subjective because here everyone is barely knowing what is AOE, ST, and enmity management.

But everytime I cross a player doing thoses errors, and tell him, it's never his fault by his opinion.

That's where the subjectivity lies : Knowing if you did wrong anytime

And that's something you will rarely see in players you cross dungeon with.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Wow maybe I'm speaking Chinese. Lets give this another shot.
But if you grab aggro it's on you. There's nothing subjective about that. It's YOUR enmity, it's YOUR management or failure to do so. So yes if your tank is in dps stance building no aggro then you should "just stand there twiddling your fingers". There's -nothing- ludicrous about that.

Again, your aggro, your responsibility. The tank's responsibility is not to cap his group's dps. They're two separate things that work together. So yes, grabbing agro is always the DPS' fault even though it often stems from a poor tanking situation. Varying degrees of good intentions/selfishness from the tank are irrelevant, your responsibilities don't change.

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I see what you mean. If I used everything else, as you said there's only not attacking that can prevent me from getting hate.

You say you see nothing ludicrous in that. There, I disagree. Not doing anything to focus on my secondary responsibility over my primary (damage) just because the tank fails at HIS primary role (hold hate to be the one getting hit) should not happen. So yes, ripping aggro is caused by my spells, hence my responsibility, AND the tank's failure to his (no failure = not happening).

I know it sounds a bit "git gud" here but it's not really my point. I'm not gonna be rude to such tanks, nor do I votekick ot trashtalk. Hell I won't either judge anything on small mistakes, it's just an inconvenience not a grave offense. But mostly, what I do now, is just going with tanks I know.
Or even sometimes I tank myself, to see the other side of the coin and so I DO know of situations where the DPS make no effort either whatsoever. But if I lose hate I go and get it back.

Going to cover for the DPS here as a tank : The dps loss incured by applying another emnity combo is far outweighted by having the DPS and healer do damage without distraction.

Though I don't expect people use their Lucid Dreaming or Diversion, I do know my limits as a tank and roughly can determine how much I need to be in tank stance before I have gotten a sufficient lead in emnity to switch stance and to my other combos without risking losing the boss.

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Originally Posted by Sakagami

So, is this something you've encountered? What can be done to discourage this kind of behavior? Or, should it just simply be use DF with people you know? Or, maybe I've just been unlucky.

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What can be done to discourage this behaviour? Use diversion. You're as much responsible for enmity as the tank is, everyone has access to enmity reduction now, if you use the tools you're given effectively then you won't take hate even if the tank never uses an aggro combo. High aggro doesn't mean high dps, it just means bad enmity control.

That said, if you're bad at controlling your enmity, the tank should be compensating with their aggro combo rather than letting you die, you're lowering their dps by being bad but letting you die lowers dps far more.

Saw a similar question in the healers board and I want to ask here since it’s relevant to DPS: which scenario would pull the most total DPS as a team? A tank who mostly focuses on dealing damage while the team manage aggro and healing? Or a tank that focus on enmity and defense while the team pumps out DPS? Of course we can have a hybrid but I’m just seeking an extreme of each side (which IMO would be the ideal scenario) since most of us live in a PUG life.

it happens sometimes. and ussually either voke is on cooldown or i have no mana :P so i have to finish my mana combo first so i can turn grit back on then do an aggro combo. sometimes that doesnt make it in time. to the casual observer it might seem that the tank isnt doing shit to save him but maybe he actually is.