[SPOILERS] Revelations from Patch 4.01

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Originally Posted by Cilia

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I believe the reason why the Echo cannot be used on Alpha is maybe because he is a abnormal existence created from data by Omega with the personality being based on what it learned a "chocobo" is like from data it gathered.

We know so far the WoL is not the first Warrior of Light it has seen but since the player WoL is the most recent one thus he has chosen the Player WoL to be the test subject. Though it is a bit perplexing why it would choose now to study the Warrior of Light when it had generations of this data even before Shinryu appeared all the way back from other planets before it ended up in Eorzea with Midgar.

Though if anything I still get this feeling the Final Omega Raid may actually be Chaos FF1 since even in FF14 the legend of FF1 WoL and Chaos is considered the biggest tale that inspires many.

And now I'm thinking about Nero wondering aloud what would happen if we fought Shinryu when it wasn't under Zenos's control, leading to Omega creating Neo-Shinryu. Thanks Moose, now I will probably be dissapoint! /jk

On Aether, if Omega is actually from another FF universe instead of being from another XIV planet/shard/whatever then Aether could just be close enough to things like Mist and other things similar to such.

I think the fallen 13th shard could be Final Fantasy 13 "Lighting Returns" because the story behind that game is to save as many people as possible before the world is completely consumed by the darkness. And I think the reason the Warriors of Darkness's world is "consumed by light" is in reference to Final Fantasy 1, because once you beat the came and conquer the darkness the game ends.and so does their world.

Well I mean... this is the Dissidia raid, right? Obviously the final boss is gonna be Feral Chaos backed up by Shinryu Verus. Can't turn out any other way. He'll go into EX Mode on Savage.

/sarcasm

A-anyway, the other language versions don't really... change my stance? Still feels pretty clear.

Omega, a soulless automaton, seeks to understand what gives us the strength to overcome seemingly impossible odds by throwing increasingly powerful foes at us (note: it already considered the Delta subjects statistically superior). That something is will, heart, soul, self-determination, etc., concepts it cannot grasp because it does not (or cannot) act in ways contrary to its programming. However its creation, Alpha, will develop a soul... and probably sacrifice himself for us, since that tends to be how things go in XIV. As a result of this extremely illogical situation Omega will go ballistic and force us to defeat it or shut down out of sheer inability to comprehend; Omega may develop a soul, but will either be malevolent or be so heavily damaged in our battle it needs to shut down again.

I'm callin' it!

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I have to wonder if Midgardsormr will be incriminated somehow by Omega. Did Midgardsormr serve Hydaelyn as a means of atonement, perhaps? Given that very few aspects of this game's lore are black or white combined with the general vagueness and refusal of Midgardsormr to reveal key information I can't help but feel that there's much more to the conflict between them.

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Only you could try to incriminate the shady but ultimately benevolent dragon against the soulless machine that threatens us with genocide for its own betterment. Only you.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Well I mean... this is the Dissidia raid, right? Obviously the final boss is gonna be Feral Chaos backed up by Shinryu Verus. Can't turn out any other way. He'll go into EX Mode on Savage.

/sarcasm

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I say Chaos as the final boss for Omega Raid because Chaos seems to be the most logical choice if Omega continues to take "legends" and make them into our challenge in Omega Raid if he has no plans to fight the WoL himself but only remain on the side gathering data.

Even in FF14 world the story of FF1 WoL and Chaos is a story told for generations that no one can compare the defeat of Chaos to any other Hero story but a pure miracle. Something that would fit into what omega is trying to understand and would be the most ideal test Simulation for his goals.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

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I'm not sure I follow.

For starters, it was mere speculation. We do not have the full picture after all. The game - and franchise as a whole - also has a track record of creating very nuanced characters and situations that are far from black or white. I remember people posting theories that the Garleans and Ascians were more nuanced than people gave them credit for only to find themselves shunned and ridiculed for it. Then it turned out that their speculation was correct - but it didn't fit the narrative quite a few vocal posters here try to push so there's only a reluctant acceptance of the shades of grey that exist.

Could Omega be irredeemable? Possibly. As it stands, we don't know enough to say for certain. One can certainly make the argument that it is implied but then we've also been led to believe that other beings in the setting are completely irredeemable only to later find out that, whilst flawed, they had noble if misguided goals. Now whether this applies to Omega remains to be seen. It might or might not.

As an aside, though, there's a handful of people who post here regularly and a bunch of people who might post once or twice in passing. With that in mind I don't see a need for snarky quips just because a particular theory doesn't fit one's own point of view. Given that it's a completely fictional setting, too, there's little need for emotionally charged 'how could you support such a horrific thing' angle, either.

A lot of things in this game - and franchise as a whole - are also deliberately left open to personal interpretation and speculation. I'd like to think that's a large part of the charm of FFXIV and why it has a lot of fans invested in the game's lore. It mostly certainly appears that way from what I've seen of the role-playing community.

I guess what I'm getting at is that at the end of the day it's a fictional setting. If people are getting to the point where they're agitated by someone's else's interpretation of a make believe world then that, to me, is a pretty good sign that simply agreeing to disagree is the ideal solution.

Is such an arrangement to your liking?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

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It was a lighthearted jab poking fun at how predictable it was you would try and force moral ambiguity into a situation that has very little. (Before you bring out the flamethrower yes I do make fun of myself too - go read the Job quest thread where I called myself an edgelord.)

If you're free try and illustrate why you feel moral ambiguity exists in a given situation, others are free to disagree and tell you why. "Agree to disagree" is just a way of saying "I don't want to discuss it, I just want to say my piece. Anybody who disagrees can just... whatever." I'm far more fond of discussion, but if that's how you feel then I shall refrain from trying to engage you in future debates.

(Note: fantasy worlds may be fictitious, but they often run on moral systems very similar to the real world. XIV, by and large, does so - as far as I can tell, at any rate.)

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Originally Posted by Cilia

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If it was a mere jest, then fair enough! I wasn't entirely sure so I appreciate the clarification. As far as moral ambiguity goes, my stance is that it's generally pretty subjective. It's less a case of supporting a cause and more an acknowledgement as to why someone or something may be driven to act a certain way. From their perspective they may very well have justifications for their actions.

I'm not one to shy away from engagement or debates. I just don't feel it's my place or anybody else's place to try and enforce a particular interpretation of the game's nuances. That's pretty much what I meant by the whole 'agree to disagree' thing. It's clear we're not going to convince each other to see things differently and that's absolutely fine!

I also like to think that members of the lore team read this board every now and then. It's just a hunch and I have no solid evidence that it's the case but a lot of the questions and moral issues we've debated here have since found their way into the game itself. The DRK 60-70 quest chain is an excellent example of what I mean. I won't spoil it here for those who haven't done it yet but it addresses quite a bit of what the debates we've engaged in have brought up.

So, in my eyes, it's well worth continuing down such a path and as such I will do just that. I adore FFXIV's setting and I very much appreciate the nuances that exist - and I also love to explore the 'how' and 'why' that surrounds each character be they an antagonist or a protagonist.

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Originally Posted by SantoLuciano

I think the fallen 13th shard could be Final Fantasy 13 "Lighting Returns" because the story behind that game is to save as many people as possible before the world is completely consumed by the darkness. And I think the reason the Warriors of Darkness's world is "consumed by light" is in reference to Final Fantasy 1, because once you beat the came and conquer the darkness the game ends.and so does their world.

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But we never saw an Ascian in FF13, also they never had Warrior of Lights in this game and there was no Hydealyn. Also at the end they completely made a whole new universe, while in FF14 the whole shard became the void. Also the world of the WoD is not consumed by Light. It would have but thanks to our crystals Minfilia was sent there to take the lights with her before they could consume the world, thus this shard is save.

Lets not forget that we already have FF15 thus we should have way more shards since they are way more FF worlds. Also I would simply not like it because I still have the hope that we will get some more information of the shards and if those are just the FF worlds than this would mean just old information again and not a real unique story to them.

FF callbacks are all nice but the world itself should have their own stand alone lore and I fear that this would put a dent on that. (FF14 is still a main game of the franchise and not a spin of like Dissidia)

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About omega: I really hope that it will stay this soulless machine. Not every single character needs to be morally grey or have a morality at all. I like that its not evil at all because right now its simply is a machine and does it things to get better and tries to do this logically. Its kinda like a robot that is created to do a certain task and if that task means to mass kill then it would not make the machine evil, it would make the one behind the machine bad.

(Also sorry but after SB I still just see Garlemald als black with some kind of grey between it.)

There is a significant difference between a motive and a justification. Without a justification, there is no moral ambiguity to be had.

As for Omega's motive? It has none, not truly. It lacks a will. Omega does only as it is programmed to - evolve through formidable opposition. It fought Shinryu not because it wanted to protect us, but because that's what its protocol deemed the logical course of action. It didn't threaten us with genocide because it's malevolent, it did so because it concluded that threatening the lives of others will draw out more power from us, potentially enabling it to discern what allows us to overcome statistical odds and perform "miracles." Without a heart or soul, Omega is a completely amoral being - it acts without concern to right and wrong. It likely doesn't even understand the concept, and applying any morality to an amoral, heartless, soulless machine is impossible. It has no moral code. (That lack of a soul also leaves it creatively sterile, but that's a bit of a digression from the point I'm getting at.)