Raid gear set bonus

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Is that a significant issue though? The fact that older gear could remain useful is an interesting point I think. I suppose it gets to that core issue where some people always want upgrades and to replace items and others think that perhaps things shouldn't be tossed out the second something else comes about. I mean I can see people arguing that both ways, I just meant to suggest that it isn't purely an issue.. could be argued as a double edged sword sort of deal~

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It can be a serious issue, yes. To use my example earlier of needing to still use my ilvl 50 AF body even at ilvl 270 content, this means that LITERALLY every healer body piece that has come out since ARR's launch is literally worthless. And that's assuming the other healers have similarly potent bonuses on their low level gear. If not, then no matter how well balanced the classes are, WHM becomes the required healer for all content simply due to having better gear. Or on the contrary, WHM is considered useless unless you have the gear because it's required to make up a deficit.

Granted, that's a bit on the extreme ends of things, but it's not quite that far-fetched either. Ability bonuses frequently wind up being a multiplier to an ability's potency, either directly or indirectly via reduced cooldowns and such. Bonuses to your bread and butter skills in particular may be prone to being too useful to replace: You'd just increase your stats on your other gear and leave that piece on forever, unless some other piece in the same slot comes out that grants the same bonus... and I think the people that ask for these kinds of bonuses aren't asking for literally every chest piece to give the same bonus. Then it just becomes a job trait.

These kind of ability bonuses worked in older MMOs because they had a different system and more importantly a different playerbase. The players who didn't bat an eye at needing to do every single piece of endgame ever released at awful drop rates (which, I will add, is kinda necessary for side-grade loot systems) are all grown up now and have jobs and various adult obligations, maybe even kids. The generation that's grown up since then generally tends to lack the free time with today's game schedules... I mean have you SEEN how many great games come out each month? And for those who do, games like FFXI and Everquest still exist, and even have legacy servers for those who want to experience the true oldschool grind.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

It can be a serious issue, yes.

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Oh yeah I didn't mean to say it can't be an issue, but for some it could also be a huge positive - also depends on how SE balances it. Of course giving into the notion that sometimes they fail to balance, they think "these options will be valid and we've done great!" but missed one item's true potential and the truth is there is only one choice now lol. WoW had that sometimes, I'd say for the most part they succeeded in at least two options but occasionally a poorly made developer decision shook the earth :P

I jumped in here because of the idea of ability bonuses, not necessarily raid only since I view that as more difficult to balance but am not opposed to it either.

Powercreep is actually a friend in these scenario, can make an ability potent for the release window but with powercreep you can out shadow it in the next wave of items.

There could be other more aggressive systems in forcing balance too. For example you could make it so only two items on your person can have active item effects, you can select them if more than two are on you at once - then the developer has to mindfully design higher tier abilities to be better than the previous tier (sometimes subjectively the previous tier would still be preferred, but far less often and more likely you'd only keep old effects active until you earned the new ones). Or the abilities self nerf themselves when used in content too far out of their base ilvl, like an ilvl200 chest's ability becoming 50% less effective in ilvl230 dungeons (basically saying "time to replace me, now~!").

I just really enjoy these changes because they feel great, imo, to obtain, read, and use. If I got some awesome gun spear from Naul but couldn't use it as an actual gun spear that'd be really sad, and in comparison to other items would feel far less unique as its the exact same stats in a different orientation (usually only "higher"). Especially when I know in WoW it'd almost most definitely have a unique on hit or ability trigger making it so much fun to experience the lore through action as well as perhaps switch up some of my play style, slightly (but importantly get that immediate feel, that impact of knowing you've got something special in your hands). Adding abilities may be a big issue in FFXIV due to the controller, but you could for example have the Naul gun spear replace your spear throw dragoon ability so instead its now a oGCD 20 second cooldown with higher damage potency (meaning you should weave it in) - no extra ability still adds that fun lore interaction (could of course do other things like every critical charges the spear, 5 stacks makes your spear throw oGCD, free, no cooldown, and do more damage).

I wouldn't suggest adding abilities is easy to balance but I still find them quite enjoyable, especially the more fantastical wild ones - even if I know they will be replaced again at the next wave of items. Especially if you use your powercreep or more aggressive balancing tools, you could keep a strict vertical system and still allow items to have abilities. Although imo it shines more when you have more options, since you might ache over which one to go after and utalize and that's fun imo.

To make a counter point though for people too concerned about having to obtain certain items or valuing items from the past, is the ideal goal just to have an always literal BiS with no choice at all? Like oh the new raid is out, all of it is BiS. Tomestone just came out two weeks after the raid, all of it is now BiS. If we're doing that I honestly don't know why gear even has stats, should just remove all the stats from gear, besides people are already annoyed with sweet spot spell speed, accuracy targets, and inconsistent parry values (which if parry was made value-able will probably lead to a similar Vit vs Strength issues, until parry becomes something like counterattack so it becomes the go to non-choice stat after the main ones lol).

I know I've started to offer a slippery slope, but I guess I don't see the value in our current itemization/small pool of diversity and would much rather have things that actually touch upon my character in an immediately tangible way, rather than reading about sweet spot skill speed and feeling more like an accountant eeking out an extra % of regular, sameness, damage as the uniqueness of items. Trait, ability, chance, on hit > discussing the merits of X skill speed, Y accuracy, and Z parry. Imo lol.

Although I do understand the concern about having your BiS separated over many pieces of content that all have low chance based rewards. That sort of starts bringing in the loot system though, which could be tweaked to address some of the concerns, even then I'm not saying its a fact right/wrong - I get thats an opinion on how one would like the game to unfold :3.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Because more people care about the MSQ than raiding?

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Lets say you're a 100% right and every player picked up the game for the MSQ and MSQ alone.

What are they supposed to do when its done? That's where your reasoning falls apart. MSQ is beatable, its done when its done.

Group content and Raiding are not when presented properly. Besides if you were 100% right, they'd not released this as a MMO. And if you were right about yourself desiring story over group content, you'd be playing FFXV instead. There's plenty of story and solo stuff in that game from what I've been told.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

What are they supposed to do when its done? That's where your reasoning falls apart. MSQ is beatable, its done when its done.

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...until the next patch. Which, incidentally, is also when you get a new raid. Sometimes. There's always MSQ in major patches, though. If people weren't playing for the MSQ, why would they have it between expansions?

If a set bonus is so good that you have to use it/go back to get it many patches later, they can just

wait for it

WAIT


nerf the set bonus. That something might be OP is no excuse for continuing this pathetic gearing system we have. Raid for a few months to max out your gear and then throw it all away because easily obtained, higher item level crafted gear gets released. Repeat 3x per expansion. Character progression is SO BORING in this game. When was the last time you were actually EXCITED to get a piece of gear? I think mine was the Allagan helmet from Twintania, because it looks cool. That's all.

This is what is stopping me from buying Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Considering how much BiS mixes and matches gear, I'm not really sure how well this would go over.

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It would make decisions more complicated than just looking at raw stats at least, when you have to decide if the set bonus or better itemization is more important. That's a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

nerf the set bonus.

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Or deactivate them. But yeah, plenty of ways to prevent people from feeling like they have to farm for old gear to obtain an OP set bonus.

I love Set bonus. It gives me a reason to not worry about BIS because BIS is full set.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Lets say you're a 100% right and every player picked up the game for the MSQ and MSQ alone.

What are they supposed to do when its done? That's where your reasoning falls apart. MSQ is beatable, its done when its done.

Group content and Raiding are not when presented properly. Besides if you were 100% right, they'd not released this as a MMO. And if you were right about yourself desiring story over group content, you'd be playing FFXV instead. There's plenty of story and solo stuff in that game from what I've been told.

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You do other content.

MMOs encapsulate multiple demographics. I can list a number of people who put in more hours playing this game than world first raiders yet never once even look at savage-- not because they lack the skill to clear it. They simply aren't interested. Some people invest hundreds of hours into crafting while others spend all their time roleplaying. Each bit of content makes up only a small portion of the audience. There is no point focusing exclusively on endgame content when only 15% of the playerbase will ever bother clearing it. Comparatively, 46% finished up to 3.3 back in last year's unofficial census. Is it any wonder why the MSQ still gets plenty of attention? If we're being technical, your line of reasoning can be applied to anything. Why clear Savage multiple times? Once it's done, it's done, right?

Look at other story driven games. Many have included multi-player components to broaden their audience potential yet still focus on the single player. The dev want FFXIV to be a story driven MMO, and market it as one. That is meant to be a selling feature. If all you fancy are endgame raids, I can tell you right now, look for another game. That isn't me being snarky either. FFXIV will never dedicate itself to raids. That simply isn't what the devs aspire for this game to be.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

To make a counter point though for people too concerned about having to obtain certain items or valuing items from the past, is the ideal goal just to have an always literal BiS with no choice at all? Like oh the new raid is out, all of it is BiS. Tomestone just came out two weeks after the raid, all of it is now BiS. If we're doing that I honestly don't know why gear even has stats, should just remove all the stats from gear, besides people are already annoyed with sweet spot spell speed, accuracy targets, and inconsistent parry values (which if parry was made value-able will probably lead to a similar Vit vs Strength issues, until parry becomes something like counterattack so it becomes the go to non-choice stat after the main ones lol).

I know I've started to offer a slippery slope, but I guess I don't see the value in our current itemization/small pool of diversity and would much rather have things that actually touch upon my character in an immediately tangible way, rather than reading about sweet spot skill speed and feeling more like an accountant eeking out an extra % of regular, sameness, damage as the uniqueness of items. Trait, ability, chance, on hit > discussing the merits of X skill speed, Y accuracy, and Z parry. Imo lol.

Although I do understand the concern about having your BiS separated over many pieces of content that all have low chance based rewards. That sort of starts bringing in the loot system though, which could be tweaked to address some of the concerns, even then I'm not saying its a fact right/wrong - I get thats an opinion on how one would like the game to unfold :3.

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Problem is, adding things like this really doesn't add much "choice" in the long run. We actually have a small amount of choice in our current lootsystem, you can mix and match between the tomestone, 24-man raid, and 8-man raid gear to make the best use of substats that can outweigh the smaller main stat bonuses, or one can stick to just one of them, or pick a stat they prefer to use over a more meta-approved mix. In a system with unique bonuses, the same "choice" still applies, either you use what players have mathematically determined to be the optimal loadout, or you don't. While one could theoretically offer multiple playstyles with a system like that, if the bonuses are large enough to alter how one plays it just makes the issue of gear sticking around all the more apparent. If you go for a specific type of build (Like, say I decide to pursue gear that enhances my regens and stoneskins so I can play like the old 1.0 WHM), either a lot of gear needs to offer the same augments at regular intervals (which removes some of the appeal for why people want a system like this, I feel), or you're going to once again have the issue of holding onto gear for years because the new gear just doesn't offer stuff for your build.

In my opinion, systems like this don't offer more choice. In a way, they offer less. I can recall playing through games like Borderlands, Diablo, or Torchlight, all games which emphasized more unique buffs over just raising base stats, and easily 99% of the loot I found was complete and utter trash to me. It didn't have the specific unique buff I wanted, so off to the vendor it went. Hell, level on gear was often irrelevant, I didn't care that enemies were dropping level 40 gear when I'd be losing out on the sweet minion damage of my level 15 gear. And this was with games where the stats on gear is rather random and a lot of stuff shares models. FFXIV kinda prides itself on allowing fashion, on new gear being an opportunity to showcase new models and whatnot, so gear is kinda more expensive for them to make. I feel it'd be rather disheartening for SquareEnix to make a new raid tier, but because the augments don't fit into the builds people are using literally nobody runs the content. While new content these days doesn't offer much excitement, I still feel it's better than looking at all the rewards and going "I can literally use none of this."

As far as your final point on the loot system, the problem is that in a game that emphasizes sidegrades, you kinda NEED low drop rates. I played FFXI for years back at the 75 cap, and I kinda got an understanding for why the loot system worked the way it did. See, if items had a high drop rate, folks would farm up their items in a week and move on to the next item on their list to assembling their BiS loadout. Problem is, what do you do about new players joining the game? You often can't rely on people solely doing content with you out of the goodness of their own hearts, especially if it's any challenge to get through. So, the best way to do that is to ensure that when new players join, there's still players who are running it for their own gear as well... hence the low drop rate. However, when you combine a low drop rate for each content, and spread it out across needing to do many different pieces of endgame content on a regular basis (and most likely even content you don't need anything from, just to "pay back" folks who went with you on content they didn't need stuff from)... the end result is you need a heaping bucket of time to really get anything done. Time which a lot of modern gamers just don't have.

Now, that all said, there was a system brought up earlier in the thread that I'm a fan of, and that's the FF9 system. Tales of Berseria did a similar system for those who only play newer games. The idea is you get a piece of gear with a unique trait on it, then you use the item for content until you master it and BOOM, you have access to it permanently. I imagine such a system would be more like FF9's, where you'd need to allocate traits with each trait costing a certain amount of points (we even currently have a system like that, hello PVP abilities!) With such a system, you'd still upgrade your gear regularly and thus negate the useless gear problem, and even more I imagine there would be a lot of players who'd be interested in grabbing gear that doesn't fit their current build and mastering the ability "just in case".

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Originally Posted by Arutan

Since the beginning of the game I've been disappointed by the lack of "Set bonus" for raid gears, and I think it could bring something interesting to the gameplay by adding some

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As long as raid gear is only effective IN RAIDS then fine, otherwise no.