On Xelphatol and the Actual Summoner.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

My friend... with all due respect here... that IS how the EQ Summoner and the EQ Necromancer worked... they were pet classes and incredibly powerful.

Its painfully obvious to me the FFXIV Devs went with a formula they know works... rather than attempt another abortion that was the FFXI Summoner.

This is a true pet class. And its even better than the EQ Summoner ad EQ Necromancer with regards to pet interaction.

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I'm afraid you have me at a disadvantage as I don't know anything about these classes or the game they belong to. Whether they advertised themselves as pet jobs or not, if they are similar to XIV's SMN then they are not what this thread is about, which is pets that function in a meaningful and impactful way. No-one is going to argue that SMN doesn't have a pet at all, but even MCH has a pet. It's a pet job. No-one is going to convince me that MCH pet interaction is remotely stimulating.

It's also really important to note that the power of a job is literally meaningless in the context of this sort of discussion. It's the foundation that it's built upon that is relevant here - how it operates, not how big the numbers are. XIV's BLM forced into VIT gear with quartered spell potency still has a viable model - the numbers are literally irrelevant. XIV's current SMN may be a powerful damage dealer - again, completely irrelevant when we're discussing the basic foundations that the job is constructed upon.

In fact, I agree with you that FFXIV developers went with a formula that works mechanically, and that's an admirable approach! It's simply not an approach that I feel correlates with what we know about the Summoner job from Final Fantasy's history.

My original response was intended to demonstrate that some people's attitudes towards XI's SMN are outdated and flawed, in an attempt to prove that it is a valid model for pet jobs to emulate. All that was needed to transform it from the broken and ineffective job of 5-10 years ago to the useful, welcomed and uniquely capable job it is today was changing some numbers. To go back to a previous example, putting our XIV BLM back into the INT gear.

I don't want to put words into your mouth, but from my persecptive it appears that you have already formed an opinion on the matter that you aren't interested in changing. I don't really want to keep repeating myself.

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It's simply not an approach that I feel correlates with what we know about the Summoner job from Final Fantasy's history.

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By this time, after a thousand and one threads on the exact same topic that simply refuses to die, all I can tell these critics is get with the programme or move on.

As someone who was a career RDM in FFXI, I still vividly remember all the endless bitching about how Square-Enix butchered the job, and turned it into something that's not meant to be in the "Final Fantasy's history".

Let me introduce all such critics to a simple word: Innovation.

I'm totally fine with each and every iteration of Final Fantasy coming up with unique interpretations of "classic" jobs. Sometimes the interpretations resonate; sometimes they don't. But ultimately, it's how well they play within the game's mechanics that matters.

I happen to enjoy FFXIV's iteration of SMN. I think it's an eminently sensible way to implement a pet class; having also played pet classes in other MMORPGs, I'm all too aware of the danger of pushing too much of a job's functionality onto its pets — the moment the pet dies, the player-character is as good as gimped and, quite quickly, dead.

It seems to me that those who keep complaining of this version of the SMN aren't simply unable to keep an open mind, and allow nostalgia to dictate their preferences.

If you don't like the job, that's fine. It's your game. Just don't presume that you speak for all the rest of us who actually enjoy the job as it's currently implemented. Go play something else you enjoy.

And, oh, by the way, I'm already quite prepared to see the same flood of complaints if Stormblood's version of the RDM yet again turns out to be too different from the "traditional" template. Twelve forbid!

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

As someone who was a career RDM in FFXI, I still vividly remember all the endless bitching about how Square-Enix butchered the job, and turned it into something that's not meant to be in the "Final Fantasy's history".

Let me introduce all such critics to a simple word: Innovation.

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Innovation was Enspells and Phalanx. Those actually built on the idea of what a guy with a sword that could cast spells would be able to do (they figured out that combining magic with what physical ability they had made up for the lack of raw strength and raw defense). What the job became after that was the lovechild of a Time Mage and Oracle that was then reduced to an MP battery.

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I happen to enjoy FFXIV's iteration of SMN. I think it's an eminently sensible way to implement a pet class; having also played pet classes in other MMORPGs, I'm all too aware of the danger of pushing too much of a job's functionality onto its pets — the moment the pet dies, the player-character is as good as gimped and, quite quickly, dead.

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There are ways to design pets so that they'll die if you're careless while also reducing the chance of your pets dying from getting breathed on by the mob. You can also tie DPS gains to pets without interfering with the master's rotation much (ex: a cooldown that consumes a stack of Aetherflow that increases damage output of egis and temporarily makes them "evolve" into something that is a bit closer to the primal they're based on). Having pets gain small damage buffs on targets affected by your DoTs wouldn't hurt either, and would even accentuate the connection between master and pet.

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It seems to me that those who keep complaining of this version of the SMN aren't simply unable to keep an open mind, and allow nostalgia to dictate their preferences.

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The direction the job has taken can almost be called schizophrenic. It started out as a pet job with pets that served different functions. Then after Leviathan and Ramuh-egi had been all but finalized, the devs gave up entirely on the pet system and tried to ride the hype of Dreadwyrm Trance.

Mind you that I'm not a SMN main, and I think it a sign of there being a problem when someone who has no stake in the design of SMN taking issue with where the job has been taken.

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And, oh, by the way, I'm already quite prepared to see the same flood of complaints if Stormblood's version of the RDM yet again turns out to be too different from the "traditional" template. Twelve forbid!

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Considering they seem to have ignored actual feedback on what could be done with RDM (read: "look at WoW's enhance shaman and ret paladin to get an idea of how to implement it"), yes, there's going to be words had after the expansion launches.

I cringe every time someone disagrees with how Summoner is handled when the only defense for it is "don't compare it with Summoner from XI" when many are comparing Summoner as a whole from the entire FF franchise.

People bitched about DRK because as a whole from a franchise standpoint it isn't a DRK in the traditional sense at all. And Samurai and Red Mage will likely follow suit. And there will be bitching about that too.

Last I recall Summoners were not known for DoTs but rather spells that called down magical beasts to render devastation down on their foes. With the occasional beast that boosted party members as well. When the boss summons Garuda in Xelphatol for an attack, that is an accurate depiction of how summoning should work. Not this chicken nugget efigy that only serves as a DoT and it's only use is as a DoT extender.

What we have here is a Super Arcanist that specializes in the Bio tree of spells. Black Magic spells mind you. A portion that rightfully belongs to the BLM that is unjustly given to a different class because reasons.

summoner needs to be nerf'd!!!!

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Let me introduce all such critics to a simple word: Innovation.

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Innovation is grand, so long as your innovative new car has wheels and goes on roads. When your innovative new car has wings and flies through the air, it's not really an innovative take on a car - it's something else. Not necessarily something worse, but it's still not a car.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I'm already quite prepared to see the same flood of complaints if Stormblood's version of the RDM yet again turns out to be too different from the "traditional" template.

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Based on what I've seen it's certainly going to be. I'm glad you're prepared, because if I'm still around then I'll likely have a lot to say on the matter!

I mean, I've just seen this new interview with the producer where he pretty much admits that he's not interested in maintaining the themes of long-standing Final Fantasy jobs. That's fine, if you want to do something new, but... don't call your aeroplane a car in the process?

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

What we have here is a Super Arcanist that specializes in the Bio tree of spells. Black Magic spells mind you. A portion that rightfully belongs to the BLM that is unjustly given to a different class because reasons.

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Arcanist Magic, otherwise known as Arcanima, is not Black Magic.

Black Magic is the use of destructive magicks made by using Environmental Aether to avoid the use of one's own Aether reserves.

Arcanima is the use of Mathematical Formulas and Geometric Symbols to create their spells. They accomplish this by using their Grimoires as a means of shaping and directing the Arcanima into the spells they use. On the topic of this, they create their Summons by temporarily splitting part of their Aether to create their Carbuncles and Egi's.

Here's some links that I used for this info.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2052557

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2150439

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3796893

Don't try to make an argument out of wrong info.

And besides, I'd rather not have SMN use full-size primals because that would make any 24-man with more than 2 of them a cluster fuck, and that's not even taking into consideration on how boring the class would be if a majority of your damage was done with a pet.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

junk

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XIV lore reasons are all well and good but every other FF game in the franchise has Bio specifically listed as Black Magic. Try again.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

XIV lore reasons are all well and good but every other FF game in the franchise has Bio specifically listed as Black Magic. Try again.

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Except lore reasons for something in this specific game are entirely valid. Series history has only ever been referential for further titles, such as numerous spells becoming Green Magic in XII. Nothing that was in one title has ever had to be exactly the same in another to be implemented. Square has done this numerous times in the past, including both XI and XIV as well as several of the single player entries. His argument is fine.

It would be cool that Ysayle ability to transform would be included as another method which could replace the pets and give it more focus on being a summoner that channels the powers of the primals into. They don't even need to give you full form they could give you something like embodiment of armor which would give you the abilities of the primal until your Magi(Mana) runs out. You can of course freely leave the form at any time so that you don't completely drain your mana but it be a good way of making some nice changes to the job itself.