Would you improve if the content required it?

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Originally Posted by Antonio_Xul

Yes I would like to improve, but I am turned off to raiding not, because it's hard, but because of the uppity d'bags that swarm to it and talk crap to people who are trying to learn it. People learn by making mistakes, these types of "hardcore" will have none of it. I watch videos to prepare, but you don't learn really until you're in it and fail here and there.

In summary, I like difficult content, but dislike the attitude of the people that run them.

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This is a tired misconception. Yes, there are jerk raiders, but there are plenty of awesome ones. On Balmung, we've started a whole Discord on gathering people who enjoy raiding to help network and I've come across a lot of pretty chill people. Don't let a few arseholes ruin it for you. The Creator is by far the most approachable raid content FFXIV's had in years. I highly recommend looking into it, be it on Zalera or another server if necessary.

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Originally Posted by Nora_of_Mira

I always think about dark souls when I think "how can a game become more difficult and satisfying" and I think you're totally right. We can't expect that kind of play in a tab-targeting GCD game.

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if only dragon's dogma online comes stateside because that's about the only mmo that comes close to that style of play and it seems to work in an mmo setting.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

People tend to want their victories earned through their own merits and skill rather than coming out on top just because they got lucky that the boss did not use a tankbuster move 3 times in a row.

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While I agree with this in part, I also think there are ways to design fights that incorporate the learning of challenging mechanics (and the sense of accomplishment that comes with being able to do so) while also avoiding the feel of this perfectly scripted dance.

Phageborn Convergence in WildStar's first raid Genetic Archives is a great example. There are five bosses, and on any given week one is not active while you fight the other four. Each boss has core mechanics that you need to deal with in different ways, so there's some strategic planning involved when you first get to the fight, but periodically throughout the fight, one of the bosses becomes empowered and teleports to the middle. When this happens, everyone must turn their attention to dealing with a new mechanic that is unique to that particular boss's middle phase. There is no pattern to which boss teleports to the middle, which forces the raid to adapt depending on which one is up at the time. Some of the middle phases require a large degree of coordination with the raid, such as "hammer" middle phase (the boss wields a giant hammer, hence the nickname for him lol), where he gains 20 interrupt armor and starts casting a very large absorb shield. Every time someone hits him with an interrupt, it does massive raid-wide damage, so the general strategy is to coordinate 5 groups of 2 people interrupting in turns while being mindful of the raid's HP as the healers recover from each raid-wide explosion. Once you've interrupted him, the middle phase ends and the raid can split back up to wherever their previous assignments were on the different bosses.

That's just one example, but I think it works well in blending practiced coordination (which I don't think should be undervalued, especially if the coordination is challenging enough) with a certain amount of unpredictability.

[edit] "Randomness" can also occur in how a mechanic is applied to lend variety, such as the distribution of big and small bombs in the X-89 fight, the first full boss in GA. If you're chosen for small bomb, you have to run and drop it at the edge of the area (when it explodes, it destroys one of the hexagonal platforms the encounter is carried out on), and if you get big bomb, you run off the entire arena to avoid destroying the entire platform (when the bomb explodes, it will bounce you back up and you can aim for safety as you land). They are mechanically rather simple, but you never know if you're going to be the one given a bomb and which one it will be, so you have to pay very close attention to what's happening to you - and what's happening around you, in case another raider misses that they got the small bomb, so that you can get away from them before it explodes and destroys the hexagon you're standing on.

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Originally Posted by ShaneDawn

I think this one nailed it. Steps of Faith was never a hard fight, but a lot of people were willing to invest more time in the forums to get the fight nerfed rather than talk to their teammates and get the fight down.

Granted, I do believe that Story Mode content should be somewhat easy, but the community reaction back then was absolutely ridiculous.

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In the other topic about difficulty, I was told that people can't understand English or something and didn't wanna be bothered with people who couldn't speak English.
I somehow find that very unlikely the encounters of meeting a non-native speaking English player having a hard time understanding
basic English, if it was their x language. "Go here. Go there. Fire." That's what Steps was all about. I play this game Solo 98% of the time
and I have never ran into a language barrier situation. Sounds like an excuse no one wants to communicate for a moment on a MULTIPLAYER vidya gaeeeeeem...
Is this is coming from someone who is generally pretty silent unless I'm saying hi and bye, have a nice day in the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Enur

http://www.strawpoll.me/11714129

I wish to see the general consensus on improvement. Please do answer honestly.

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Currently your poll says 88% yes but in reality that hasn't materialised in the past.

Depends on the end result. For me it's not the difficulty of content that puts me off. it's the lack of reward or accomplishment that everything tends to have as a result of how quickly stuff turns from being great to junk..

if we go back a patch for example and look at midas savage. the rewards there were some of the best pieces of 240 gear you could use. but the problem is the minute 3.4 landed it all turned to crap. made obsolete by simple crafted gears. which then made the 240 stuff you had not even good enough to start the next patch with.

the other problem is that everything gets easier over time. with echo bonuses higher end gear etc etc. those coil fights i spent a great deal of time doing in ARR to finish the associated story are now so trivial a 3 man grpup can drop bahamut in t13 with very little difficulty. so even the final witness title that was once something of pride is now trash that any muppet can get.

all in all it just kills the motivation to bother trying. the hardest thing ive done recently is soph ex because i figured it was quick and easy way to get some temporary upgrades to my weapons. its a level of difficulty that provides a small degree of challenge but still easy enough that even at i237 my scholar can solo heal it assuming the dps are decent and don't end up with insanely high vulnerability stacks.

in the end then it's simply a case of is what you get out of it worth what you need to put in.... and when you look at savage and stuff the answer is just "Nope."
for me it's something i know i could do if i wanted with little difficulty at all. but my friends aint really interested and they are the main thing that keeps me playing.

if things felt more valuable then i'd wager more people would be interested in obtaining them

Honestly, I am surprised 55 people voted no. It seems like an obvious yes answer. Answering yes doesn't even mean that you want the content to require it.

@Dzian

Correction, 240 gear was very useful at the beginning of 3.4
People have cleared Sophia EX, A9S and A10S with it.

A friend of mine cleared A12S with some 240 pieces. I would not call 240 gear useless.

What MistakeNot said.
Depends on the level of difficulty. I don't mind a slight spike in difficulty (one where I just need to be a bit more on my toes, maybe adjust 2, 3 skills in my rotation, pay careful attention to mechanics because otherwise they kill me).
If it is "Completely relearn your entire class, use super expensive food and pots to even have the slightest chance on meeting dps/heal checks, also the tiniest mistake from someone else will instantly wipe the entire party", then no.
In that case, I'll just not bother with said content.

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Originally Posted by Chocolys

No. I don't play FF XIV for the challenge. I enjoy FF XIV as a relaxing game, I play for the story, the exploration, the social aspect, etc.. . Back then when The Binding Coil of Bahamut was released for the first time, I did not even bother with it, I just ignored it. If the game was made to be a constant challenge, I would simply play something else.

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Ah how I love these casuals vs hardcore threads. And I agree. If I'm running something for the first time with a group of friends, I'll tell them to hold up so I can stare at a statue. I like to soak up lore like a sponge. If it's 100% optional then sure, go pure Dark Souls or NES difficulties. Just let me appreciate the scenery along the yellow brick road. Aion had incredible scenery but major and occasionally unfair challenges to work through (haha good luck getting that quest done when someone thrice your level rams a sword up your behind). If I wanted to deal with that, I'd still be playing it.