I would like to see Classes treated as proper, separate "Jobs"

So if I am reading this correctly by this point the general idea to remove the restrictions on future design imposed by the current system is...


1) Axe cross-classing, any functions important to the job/class that were from other classes gets implemented into the job/class via "new" class flavored skills.

2) Axe the connection between a class and a job.
a) With no cross classing the class can proceed to level cap without having to be held back, they can get their LB3 back and get new skills from 50-current level cap, and allowing their function to be changed if needed since they do not need to operate as the base of a job.
b) Jobs can be changed to simply require similar classes (that use the same main weapon basically) to level 30 and be treated as separate things entirely like how Rogue required you to be level 10 in any other class before it could be picked up, allowing their function to be changed if needed. EX: Warrior becomes a Heavy Melee DPS

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

There's a lot more room for creativity if they had gotten rid of cross-skills altogether

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In general I don't see them doing this—part of the reason cross-class skills exist is to encourage people to try and play other classes. Personally I'd rather they expand cross-class skills in some way, rather than removing them.

Rogue actually does offer cross-class skills (Shade Shift, Goad, and Death Blossom), but since none of the existing Jobs have Rogue as a requirement, they don't see see any use. Future jobs may have access to them, though, especially if they move to a point where another job uses Scouting gear—any such job would be more thematically likely to have Rogue as a subclass than others would be.

so you basically want them to waste resources making alternate fantasy versions of the jobs but as the class itself? so instead of getting new jobs, we would have the original ones, same weapons, essentially same skills except for a couple new ones to make a "gladiator dps and warrior pirate dps" (examples)? On top of this, you would have the classes and jobs rolling on items together. I can see how that would go. "but I need that sword and shield, its gonna boost my dps! All you do is tank and soak damage." -_- No thanks. I'll pass.

i do have thought here is my thought expand the cross skills to cross skills traits for example.

see traits have not add expand on.

I not rework combat system that like pulled rug for underneath players. leave it be. Plus Yoshi P did make promise never to change it

ffxiv is unquine it has very amazing history why was ffxiv called a realm reborn. simple put 1.0 was close to be failure then came along Yoshi P. he and talented devs team toke the failure know as ffxiv and made it into succeed.

ffxiv isn't ffx1-2 nor is wow ffxiv skinned. it is ffxiv it stand alone at own unqine product

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

In general, cross-skilling always comes back to the same problem; there will always be optimal choices and ultimately the ability to select those traits takes away from job identity and homogenizes them. Not to mention something like mechanical traits are designed with the job in mind, whatever works on archer may not necessarily work on gladiator. For a big change to work, you don't want to take away the identity of an existing class, you want to expand on it.

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Agreed; for me there is just one key aim—for the player to love his class/job. But, while that has foremost to do with its core gameplay, it all has to do with its progression and opportunities. In both cases—it comes down to his experiences with it, in and between fights, and perhaps even where it carries over into other classes. I'll prioritize the class itself, sure, but if there's something that adds to the player connection to any and all classes, potentially, rather than homogenizing them, I'll take that. It might not be appropriate until certain changes to how leveling itself works (shared EXP between classes when performing similar functions, or being able to spend EXP on a related class's skill even before you've reached its normal acquisition level on that class, etc.), but I think that's a goal worth undertaking, especially given the lackluster nature of character progression in this game, especially across multiple classes/jobs on the same character.

That said... Is there not a mathematical best in job selection? Yet we still have jobs that aren't technically optimal even in their surrounding compositions, which may already be sub-optimal in a way that advantages that job, attending and clearing content. You're using number-balancing as a reason not to have complexity. It's external complexity in this case, where balance may conflict with what feels "natural" or (therefore) "fun" for a given class/job, and therefore, depending on how you look at it, more appropriate to sacrifice. But it is still that same key argument. I could have sworn you preferred that gameplay & identity be looked at, almost exclusively, before worrying about numbers? I could understand an argument as to this slowing balancing changes necessary for different classes, etc., who are more key to the iconic raiding environment, but to say it's flawed just because balances will be necessary? Just because it might inevitably end up varying a few percent in output over a given fight?

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

It's both imo. The way the class/jobs are now, you can't reasonably make branching jobs due to how they share abilities and traits from 1-50. The way cross skills work now, they are essentially required (and this really isn't up for debate when a fight demands tank swaps) and you end up having skills that are exactly the same on multiple jobs, taking away from individuality, fantasy and flavor. Jobs not having traits is also locking it to those soul crystals, and leads to button bloating (which cross skilling also does) while being unable to add depth or identity.

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It's the adherence to a specific number of stat-increasing traits, the exact same number of traits and abilities given to each class, the exclusion of job traits, similar arbitrary but stubborn rigidities, and the complacency to scarcely differentiate classes integrally—in their gameplay, in their undermechanics, etc.—that cut short any future development

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That's exactly what I'm trying to get at though. There's nothing about "a" class system that says that jobs stemming from it must take all the same base skills. You could just as easily give a class more skills than any one job expanding from it can take atop its own unique job skills. Nor is there any rule in a system that happens to have source classes and expanded jobs that the jobs aren't at all allowed to modify the effects of class skills passed on to them. It's not the fact that we have two tiers of broad / customizable and deep / iconic classes-jobs that's holding us back. It's the execution in relating the two to each other.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Idk, it feels really arbitrary when they're essentially forcing you to level other classes just to be able to function in end game (and sometimes not even) content. Specifically abilities like provoke. If it means getting rid of the homogenization of all physical dps getting B4B and invigorate, but instead have 5 new abilties in it's place that gives more depth and identity to each job, I'd rather ditch the cross classing.

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This much I definitely agree with. When they continually make fights that necessitate those skills, they just become a part of an awkwardly extended check-list, with yet more components that likely aren't intrinsically fun whatsoever. Being able to explore new avenues though, and being more fluidly able to bring them into your combat style to augment it in ways you wouldn't have expected from your class thematic alone, even if it does in the end fit quite nicely... I would love that.

Of course, we'd first need real class thematics for that to even be a thing.

I'd be fine also with just replacing the cross-class skills with more distinct versions stemming from each separate class; I just don't want to jump to the easier solution without exploring what all character progression advantages a cross-class revamp could offer. One of the things that's always bugged me about this game is how it sells itself as being "all classes on one character" as if that were "alt friendly" when it effectively just means "main + cross-classes per character for best gearing opportunities" and "no quests for your other jobs' leveling, sorry... but at least you get bonus EXP."

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Originally Posted by Alahra

In general I don't see them doing this—part of the reason cross-class skills exist is to encourage people to try and play other classes. Personally I'd rather they expand cross-class skills in some way, rather than removing them.

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Idk, it feels really arbitrary when they're essentially forcing you to level other classes just to be able to function in end game (and sometimes not even) content. Specifically abilities like provoke. If it means getting rid of the homogenization of all physical dps getting B4B and invigorate, but instead have 5 new abilties in it's place that gives more depth and identity to each job, I'd rather ditch the cross classing

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Rogue actually does offer cross-class skills (Shade Shift, Goad, and Death Blossom), but since none of the existing Jobs have Rogue as a requirement, they don't see see any use. Future jobs may have access to them, though, especially if they move to a point where another job uses Scouting gear—any such job would be more thematically likely to have Rogue as a subclass than others would be.

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I already addressed this; I said that none of the existing jobs can use rogue skills, not even the new ones.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

...the problem really roots back to the cross classing when you see that rogue has no cross-skills for any of the current jobs, not even the new ones.

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The way it is now is also a retroactive problem; MCH, AST and DRK offers no cross classing. Some of them would not even make sense conceptually if you tried (trying to cross class something like wildfire, rapid fire, or reload) to put it on another class/job by itself.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That's exactly what I'm trying to get at though. There's nothing about "a" class system that says that jobs stemming from it must take all the same base skills. You could just as easily give a class more skills than any one job expanding from it can take atop its own unique job skills. Nor is there any rule in a system that happens to have source classes and expanded jobs that the jobs aren't at all allowed to modify the effects of class skills passed on to them. It's not the fact that we have two tiers of broad / customizable and deep / iconic classes-jobs that's holding us back. It's the execution in relating the two to each other.

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Well I'm speaking for it as is. If they want to make it work, the changes need to be implemented to how it works in general from the ground-up. Skills need to be retroactively changed as you equip a job crystal, traits need to be job exclusive, etc etc. We just have none of that in the current workings, unless you count MCH/DRK/AST traits by definition since they are job-only.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Idk, it feels really arbitrary when they're essentially forcing you to level other classes just to be able to function in end game (and sometimes not even) content

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It's not arbitrary at all: you just don't happen to think the goals the developers likely had are worthwhile ones. Is it necessary for a game to function? No. But it accomplishes things that can have value to the developers and indeed the playerbase, such as extending playtime, diversifying players' understanding of other classes, and also getting players to try things they might not have otherwise.

Just as one anecdotal example, I've never healed in my previous MMOs in a serious way, and would have never gave Conjurer a real, post-15-shot if Stoneskin hadn't been a cross-class skill for Paladin. SCH ended up being my main in ARR after I found the healing here to be quite different from its state in other games and is still my secondary today. If it weren't for that, I actually probably would have quit the game prior to NIN's release, and may not have returned for it.

I do agree that Provoke is problematic, as there actually is content that requires it, and it should probably either have its level swapped with something pre-15 (since both tanks require GLA 15 anyway), or WAR and DRK should have Provoke "Clones." None of the others are strictly necessary, however, though Invigorate and Swiftcast are strong enough that they could also use equivalents for the other classes.

I would prefer if all jobs get changed into classes (without replacing the current classes) and that we can use all learned skills on all classes like we did before 1.20
And THM get changed back to cone AoE DoT astral/umbral damage healer.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

One of the things that's always bugged me about this game is how it sells itself as being "all classes on one character" as if that were "alt friendly" when it effectively just means "main + cross-classes per character for best gearing opportunities" and "no quests for your other jobs' leveling, sorry... but at least you get bonus EXP."

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During 1.x that was solved with favor classes and optimal level on gear instead of required classes and level (can wear every gear, you just get a bit of stat penalty if wearing it with the wrong class or level) and leves (8 every 36 hours) and behest (every 30 minutes in a camp) as the way to level up. MSQ and sidequests only existed to tell a story, not to level up.

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Originally Posted by Felis

-snip-

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So in other words, remove classes and just give us a bunch of omniclasses with special names?

Cause that sounds just like a case of no class identity. That works in games designed around a single class with a bunch of horizontal options, that works in a game like Final Fantasy X or XII where there are no classes and it was built with homogenization customization in mind. That wont work here, which is why the game was redesigned away from that.

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Originally Posted by Felis

During 1.x that was solved with favor classes and optimal level on gear instead of required classes and level (can wear every gear, you just get a bit of stat penalty if wearing it with the wrong class or level) and leves (8 every 36 hours) and behest (every 30 minutes in a camp) as the way to level up. MSQ and sidequests only existed to tell a story, not to level up.

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< (Some 200 levels covered during legacy, from 1.0 to 1.23)

Agreed on the optimal gear, but to be honest, the penalties were pretty harsh, and the cross-over opportunities they offered depended more, imo, on the fact that every job could use most primary stats in some way. Lancers were Strength, Piety, Dexterity, with Archers their inverse, etc. Mind was a useful offensive stat along with a healer SP source.

That said, I'm not sure the sheer lack of exp coming from quests (albeit of an an average higher quality) can be called a "solution" to quests being primarily spent on a main character and nothing really remaining to make the alt leveling experience similarly lively in a similar fashion. Inevitably, this is going to happen, but I feel like the solution needs to be more quickly generate-able, but still gameplay-enjoyable, content if anything, along with possibly accelerating the overall leveling experience BY making leveling across multiple classes feel more connected, rather than by just tossing on bonus EXP. I'm not saying we should bring back the fatigue system to invert the way bonus exp would basically ask us to prioritize our lead class, instead damn near forcing us to spend time on our alts, but I'd really like to stop feeling like I just unlearned almost everything I just spent 50 levels on when I hop to a new class. They 1.0 physical level partly did this, in combination with the multi-stat system—I think that's a decent start, although its previous incarnation does certainly point out some flaws.

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Originally Posted by Felis

I would prefer if all jobs get changed into classes (without replacing the current classes) and that we can use all learned skills on all classes like we did before 1.20
And THM get changed back to cone AoE DoT astral/umbral damage healer.

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I personally would not prefer that. I prefer the idea of having classes as tools or paths for learning, experimentation, and coming into one's own, and jobs as goals—assuming a particular, iconic role, bringing a few different tools to it than others, perhaps, but in all ways that job. The only alternative I could see myself liking is making jobs essentially an extra skill-set, such as "Ancient Magics (Dark)", "Eikonic Manifest", <Greater White Magics>, etc., affinitive to certain classes due to their skills and weapon choices but otherwise a separate mix-and-match layer atop them.