Proposal: HQ mat-to-HQ mat conversion of 100%

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

In fact, many of the abilities meant to raise quality can often decrease it. Inspiration: increased chance of quality but reduces success rate. Really now...and what happens if you fail where you would have otherwise succeeded?

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Which is why it is most useful for crafts that are low enough rank relative to you that you're virtually guaranteed success. The kinds of abilities you equip are very specific to the circumstances of the synth.

Look, I realize the various diminishing returns in this game. I deal with that all the time on my battle classes. However, on a crafter, there are really only so many stats you can maximize, and things like making a +3 file, getting dodore, vintage coif, vintage thighboots, etc, setting optimal stats, and eating the right food aren't all that hard to achieve.

Especially for a Blacksmith, making your own +3 file is relatively easy compared to what other classes have to go through, so you might as well do it. It can't hurt.

Unless you believe it's just a big waste of time and the minimal gains aren't worth the investment.

But it can hurt. You've bought into a false system instead of one *truly* capable of bringing balance to crafting. You can't base crafting balance on the lie that getting better and getting a +3 is going to make a difference. That is paying 3 million gil for one magic accuracy.

Find me a crafter who you think has done what you think matters, and I'll equal their HQ rates without it. Guaranteed.

The damage that it does is that it wastes human life hours on a lie, and convinces people that there is a balance that doesn't exist.

When I say HQ rates are too low, I'm saying your HQ rates are too low. Not that I suck.

Look at the reality you're facing:
Iron Ore+3*4--->10% chance of Iron Nugget+3
Iron nugget+3*5----> 10% chance of Iron Ingot+3
Total chance of Iron Ingot +3 from Iron Ore+3: 1%

So what if an ability doubles that chance? Outright doubles it.
Your chance is now 2%.

Two percent. If you make 100 iron ingots, now instead of one iron ingot+3, you now have two.
Okay, you still don't have enough to try a single mortar or weapon blade. The 90 NQ iron ingots made go to NPC. The 8 +1's you made go to your retainer and will eventually go into your mortar synth because you're desperate and you settle. Hell you didn't even make any +2's, whats the deal with that?

400 iron ore+3's. Gone. And you don't even have enough ingots to try to make a mortar+3 yet. Which it will only have a 10% chance of being one anyway.

And that's assuming that you're right. That skill matters. That it makes you TWICE as good as I am.

Twice as good as I am is still horrible. And that is the point.

People make two mistakes when they argue that "rare is a good thing" here.

The first is to think themselves a better crafter than they really are. In essence they see themselves as this epic crafter who stands or will stand above the rest, and thus "rare" benefits them. It's a lie. They aren't that crafter. They will never be that crafter. They *can't* be that crafter. The system does not allow it. What they can do is simply to take advantage of the painful system and mindlessly grind where others refuse. If it takes 1600 iron ore+3's to make mortar+3 then by god that's what they'll do and it's good that they do that. If that's the kind of game we're making here, let me know now.

The second is to not fully comprehend just how rare rare is. We don't do a good job of realizing there's no difference when we want there to be. We're even worse at realizing the significance of very small and very large numbers. Thermal alembic+3 is so rare that you can't afford a thermal alembic+3 and a steel mortar+3. You and your two retainers can't hold that much gil.

The majority of people simply think they're better than they really are. They're gonna make it to the NBA. They're gonna be the 1 in a thousand. They're gonna be the +3 king on the server. Rare is good, because they're rare.

Well no, they're really not.

We already agreed on the first page that materials HQ rates are way too low and that something should be done about it. I know what you're saying and understand.

What I was talking about in the last couple posts were the ways a crafter can maximize his potential using the current system we have now. For some, they have done their best to get the best gear and the best abilities to build the best character they can. If they enjoy that kind of thing, or if they think it makes their character stronger, then they don't consider it a waste of time. Others would argue that that extra last push to maximize is totally not worth it because of the diminishing returns and that it quite possibly doesn't help at all, making the whole endeavor a big waste of time. Obviously, you fall into the latter camp.

Maybe it helps little, maybe not at all. I don't know without extensive logs and parses and can't say for sure. But neither can you.

What I do know is a lot of the elite crafters have been doing their best to to get their +3 tools and their rank 50 sub-craft skills as much as they can, and more than one have said that at the very least, it helps a little bit.

Maybe it's confirmation bias like you said, maybe it isn't. Again, without hard numbers we're only going on perception, so I can't say for sure and neither can you. What I do know, is that the high level crafters I know who have bothered to put in the time to push their character further know what it's like to have good gear and skills vs. what it's like to have the best gear and skills.

You only have the experience of working with good gear and skills, so I'm going to defer to the opinions of those crafters who have more experience in the matter.

Now, maybe they might regret having spent so much time to get to that level and see only a slight improvement in their results. Maybe if they had to do it all over again, they wouldn't even bother to make the effort to get all those skills and +3 tools. Or maybe they still would. I don't know, and it's not like I can ask them since the servers are down.

But I think we're in agreement that a crafter is either 1. wanting to max out his character despite the diminishing returns, or 2. wanting to get the best character he can get without wasting too much time with marginally more useful gear and skills.

That's fine. Everyone has the freedom to play in a way he or she wants to. If someone wants to pimp out their character as much as he can, well, that's his prerogative, whether or not you think it's a waste of time.

You can do and think what you want about your character, but the reality of the system will go regardless. The more people drag their feet and believe in the misconception they are or are going to be an epic +3 crafter from working harder and "being the best there ever was," the more broken things stay. One more ability's gonna make it better. 4 more craftsmanship. Just 4 more come on. THEN I'll be great. THEN it will make a difference. THEN I will be distinguished.

Stop. It's broken. It's not you. It's the system.

I see a lot of people wanting the system to stay the same because they think they're better at it than I am. I would like to see them try to be. I have a few feathers on my cap as just a "good" crafter. I don't wear the Dodore Doublet +1 for nothing around here.

Min/Maxers will always say that it makes them better, no matter what the truth is. Again, they are free to buy a black pearl ring for 3 million gil if they wish. But don't sit there and argue that it matters to me. I'll just laugh. I'm confident enough in my abilities to admit when what I have doesn't really matter much. I have no ulterior motive to keep other crafters down. I have no affected hopes of being the best there ever was and catch em all.

I just want the system to be balanced, and I'm at the level of smithing to start to critically analyze this pseudo-endgame situation we're in of trying to make the best of the best weapons. This is a microcosm of how endgame crafting is going to look, and it looks like **** to be honest. 50 hours of discarding insufficient-quality materials is what it looks like to me, and there's no getting around it. I don't want to waste 30 million gil in steel for the materials it takes for a small shot at a +3 steel mortar. I don't want to make 55 +1 steel mortars before I make a +3. There aren't even that many alchemists, I'll be NPC'ing HQ endgame weapons. NPC'ing! For what...4 more craftsmanship? Come on now.

I'll do a Polished Iron File +3. I tried once before and got 3+1's. I actually started on the saltpeter+3's before this thread started.

Will it make any difference? Not one bit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

You can do and think what you want about your character, but the reality of the system will go regardless. The more people drag their feet and believe in the misconception they are or are going to be an epic +3 crafter from working harder and "being the best there ever was," the more broken things stay. One more ability's gonna make it better. 4 more craftsmanship. Just 4 more come on. THEN I'll be great. THEN it will make a difference. THEN I will be distinguished.

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None of the crafters I alluded to are under the misconception that this one thing will make them light years above the rest. It's just part of building your character. I know just as many more casual crafters who don't want to bother with that stuff and are of the same mindset as you.

If you think I'm advocating one method over the other, I'm not. I'm also not trying to imply that you're somehow majorly gimped because you didn't decide to spend another 2 months grinding for a tiny bit of improvement.

We all know the system is badly designed. We've all known that since beta. All I'm trying to point out is how some people play differently than others and that time invested vs. perceived/actual character improvement is valued differently among players.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

I'll do a Polished Iron File +3. I tried once before and got 3+1's. I actually started on the saltpeter+3's before this thread started.

Will it make any difference? Not one bit.

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If you honestly believe that it won't matter, why even bother trying to do it then?

Anyway, I'm not sure why you're trying to make a +3 alembic, as it's totally not worth the effort. You're probably better off trying to do stuff like HQing Iron Bhujs to sell to Goldsmiths so that they can attempt to HQ Engraved Bhujs, if you're not doing that already.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Yup. Here's another one.

Solace Ist:
50 Carp
50 alch
Botany Rank...21

Of course you're going to argue that crafter HQ rates should be more dependent on their pokemon skills they've collected and not the materials. You're more biased than I am. Again, too many first generation crafters are exactly like this. You levelled carpentry and alchemy without botany. You kidding me? And you expect to be competitive because of your offhand stat and Hand of the Gods?

In my opinion a R30 with better botany skills than you have deserves to go neck and neck with you in HQ3 synthesis. And a R50 alch and carp with a R40+ botanist deserves to put you out of the HQ making scene entirely.

Level your bot if you want to be a good carpenter. 610 quality that you don't have access to consistently should be rewarded.

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LOL.

You've got to be kidding me.

Instead of wasting my time running around between trees and playing hot and cold, I spent my time making and selling gear and building cash and ... you know ... crafting. At one point I had about 50 mil sitting in my bank. I don't NEED to do botany or mining. I have enough mats to level everything to 50 already and two alt retainers full of stacks of +3 mats. If you want to pat yourself on the back about your leet skills at playing hot and cold, feel free, but you sound like a total melvin when you try to brag about how playing hot and cold makes you a better carpenter.

Please, save everyone your cute little opinion. Gathering jobs have nothing at all to do with crafting. Zip. Nada. Zilch. If you think gathering should have an effect on crafting, you are living in dreamland. They're not even in the same class categories.

Let me ask you this -> how much money have you made on your crafting job, you know, doing crafting? I'm guessing not very much if you think that gathering goes hand in hand with crafting and that you just can't excel at one without the other.

In short, let me sum up your little argument:

"I think I deserve to be buffed but please nerf anyone else who doesn't play the game the way I think it should be played."

Maybe you should relax and stop worrying about what other people are doing and start maybe, you know, working on your crafter.

"None of the crafters I alluded to are under the misconception that this one thing will make them light years above the rest."

--But do they argue that these several little things add up to their future greatness? Sometimes every little bit still amounts to no difference. That's the current situation. FFXI was different. It was the way it was because of its tier systems that EXPLODED you ahead of the rest if you hit them and gave you the means to DOMINATE over them. In XIV they took out all of those elite tiers and replaced them with generic grinding. Crafting is no different. You want +3 metal parts? It's not about how good you are. It's about how long you can stand to grind shots at them.

"If you honestly believe that it won't matter, why even bother trying to do it then?"
-For you, mostly. It's an advertisement to you, way more than it is an enhancement for me. There are a lot of smiths to choose from, and I make most of my gil from contracts so I don't have to chase down my own mats and hastle with selling crap in a flooded market.

"I'm not sure why you're trying to make a +3 alembic"
-Because a shellmember wants it pretty badly and it will likely be the first request that I will fail to produce.

"You're probably better off trying to do stuff like HQing Iron Bhujs to sell to Goldsmiths so that they can attempt to HQ Engraved Bhujs"

How's selling something to myself better off >.> Nah, I see a lot of crafters doing all these things for the money. They have 100 million. 200 million. 300 million. Engraved Bhuj+2 2.5 million gil!

Blah. It's not about the money...it's about sending a message.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

You can do and think what you want about your character, but the reality of the system will go regardless. The more people drag their feet and believe in the misconception they are or are going to be an epic +3 crafter from working harder and "being the best there ever was," the more broken things stay. One more ability's gonna make it better. 4 more craftsmanship. Just 4 more come on. THEN I'll be great. THEN it will make a difference. THEN I will be distinguished.

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What a lackluster, boring, blah and historically disproven argument you've dredged up, there.

"I have 1000 dollars. If I get an extra dollar, it's not much different than what I have now, so what's the point. Even if that happens a million more times, each extra dollar isn't worth much more than the one before it, so who cares."

It's the classic heap paradox, and you're just as wrong for arguing it as Eubulides was 2000+ years ago.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

"None of the crafters I alluded to are under the misconception that this one thing will make them light years above the rest."

--But do they argue that these several little things add up to their future greatness? Sometimes every little bit still amounts to no difference.

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Well, then we can agree to disagree there. We think there's a small difference that's potentially worth the time invested. You don't. That's fine.

Anyway - how are you attempting to make Steel Mortars, anyway? That's an Armorer synth, and you're a Blacksmith.