Crafting is fun!

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Well, "you can't please all of the people all of the time." -- John Lydgate

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This is true. However, ARR crafting *did* please me (and others) and 3.0 crafting no longer pleases us. We're not crazy for wishing things were different, especially if crafting was something about the game we once really enjoyed but no longer do because of the overhaul.

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

But you can objectively tell when things are going good or wrong.
And 3.0 crafting is absolutely clearly going wrong.

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This is provably incorrect. I'm enjoying 3.0 gathering and crafting. Whether I am speed-gathering for Favor mats or rolling the dice in a 2-star craft, I am having fun. And thank goodness there's a scrip cap, or my IRL job might be at risk.

Therefore 3.0 crafting is subjectively going good, from my point of view. And like spicy food, if something is subjectively good to some and subjectively bad to others, then it is impossible for it to be objectively good or bad.

Sure, 3.0 crafting is different from 2.0 crafting, like habanero chili peppers are different from green peppers, so people who liked one might not like the other. But it's just a matter of taste, not of objective good or bad.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

This is true. However, ARR crafting *did* please me (and others) and 3.0 crafting no longer pleases us. We're not crazy for wishing things were different, especially if crafting was something about the game we once really enjoyed but no longer do because of the overhaul.

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I at least have never said you are crazy. I just say that I am enjoying the current system, but I also enjoy sashimi, which not everyone does.
3.0 crafting isn't broken, it's just not to everyone's taste.

It reminds me months ago many crafters suggested high-level content bosses only drop mats,
so forcing the players "interact" with crafters to craft their gears... ^^;

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

This is provably incorrect. I'm enjoying 3.0 gathering and crafting. Whether I am speed-gathering for Favor mats or rolling the dice in a 2-star craft, I am having fun. And thank goodness there's a scrip cap, or my IRL job might be at risk.

Therefore 3.0 crafting is subjectively going good, from my point of view. And like spicy food, if something is subjectively good to some and subjectively bad to others, then it is impossible for it to be objectively good or bad.

Sure, 3.0 crafting is different from 2.0 crafting, like habanero chili peppers are different from green peppers, so people who liked one might not like the other. But it's just a matter of taste, not of objective good or bad.

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Again wrong.

Objectively speaking, when you have, way over too many members of the community NOT enjoying your content, is cause you messed up and your content is OBJECTIVELY BAD even if someone likes it, as for example, there is people that likes to be abused, its fun for them, but the act of abusing is still objectively bad.

One "i like thread" and a few persons like yourself doesn`t even weight against the several tens of threads on all laguages across all data servers and all the craftsmen and woman dissapointed and even whole guilds (be it FC or LSs) of crafters going down thanks to the changes of 3.0 ... It`s a bad system, 3.0 was a bad change, if you enjoy it, good for you, but is still, objectively speaking, for the way grater (by landslide) mayority of crafters who doesn`t like it is a terrible system that needs changes, a full 180º turn if you ask me, this whole concept of killing omni-crafting by forcing interdependence is a mess.

If you have people, diehard mastercrafters droping their main activity because of a patch, said patch is bad.

Exactly like bad raid content makes raiders to leave and drop the games.

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

Again wrong.

Objectively speaking, when you have, way over too many members of the community NOT enjoying your content, is cause you messed up and your content is OBJECTIVELY BAD even if someone likes it, as for example, there is people that likes to be abused, its fun for them, but the act of abusing is still objectively bad.

One "i like thread" and a few persons like yourself doesn`t even weight against the several tens of threads ...

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Oh nonsense. People like to complain, and Internet forums are never a valid indication of how a majority feel because they are often populated by fanatics/trolls. The only ones with any valid data about the popularity of 3.0 crafting and gathering is SE, not you, not me.

Quit pretending that most people agree with you, that's not something you can possibly know.

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

If you have people, diehard mastercrafters droping their main activity because of a patch, said patch is bad.

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Awe, did that bad Yoshida-san take away your widdle gil-printing machine? So sad, too bad.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Oh nonsense. People like to complain, and Internet forums are never a valid indication of how a majority feel because they are often populated by fanatics/trolls. The only ones with any valid data about the popularity of 3.0 crafting and gathering is SE, not you, not me.

Quit pretending that most people agree with you, that's not something you can possibly know.

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Ask every crafter on every server and I guarantee you most will say they hate it. Many many server-leading crafters have quit because the system is objectively bad. Anyone who defends it is the 1% that ruins games by making awful requests that result in bad game design. If you can't figure out why this system is bad, I truly feel for your well-being.

Curious, beyond what I can gather is the pain of having a weekly cap on scripts, what actually is wrong with crafting now?

Gathering from what I understand is just a pain in the arse because Favors aren't rewarding or something. (Please correct me if I'm wrong).

As to the whole objectively/subjectively bad? The two aren't related. People are *weird*. Fairly universally. Some people like some things, other people like other things. It's fairly safe to say that something can be objectively bad by almost every metric, and still have someone enjoy it. Some of them are the gaming equivalent of those who climb Everest for fun .. some of them just enjoy brutally punishing systems .. some of them just aren't experienced in other systems (or, for instance, ARR), so this being better then drop mats in box, take out item that has random stuff on it seems like a hugely wonderful progress.

Now ... the reasons why I would say crafting is bad:
#1 - there is nothing endgame that is not crafting related. Nothing that is competitive, interesting, or viable for use. It's not a case of "suboptimal" -- the ilvl spread for drops/tomes is a full 40. The absolute best crafted piece is 160. Law is so easy to acquire that it's trivial to have full 170, and takes only a little while for full 180. 5 weeks can get you full 190, with several 200 pieces.
#2 - Scrip tokens. Being able to craft 2-3 pieces a week, if you do full tokens, and gather full time (with 100% exactly the favors you need exactly the mats you need .. plus access to all the folklore items ....)
#3 - Specialists. Play with your hamster wheel! Whistle while you're doing it! Enjoy the RNG! Most of the abilities are lesser versions of existing abilities, with more RNG mixed in. The few that aren't are hyper dependent on RNG -- not just 50/70/80/90 ... but dependent on getting a series of 'good'/'excellent' or eat up the already extremely limited CP pool. Or both.
#4 - Serious community arguments. All related to the above. You have those who have crafted for ages, worked at leveling everything up .. call them the old guard. You have the people who are just starting, working on their first class ... and you have huge disagreements between them. Worst offender? specialist recipes, which I really hope don't get implemented (I'm old guard)
#5 - Too much uncertainty. Nobody knows what's coming next .. and most of us have had enough kicks in the teeth to not trust it. It's not generally 'looking forward eagerly for new content', at best it's 'looking forward with trepidation' going to 'looking forward with dread' and at worst ... 'not crafting anymore', because none of the changes implemented since 3.0 have been significant. Gathering got 1 that was helpful; but it wasn't a big change. It did make the system barely usable though.
#6 - It breaks the thriving interconnected market ARR had, where:
On one side, dungeons/raids provided mats directly and through seals and tomes, everyone could earn gil that way, gear was available for DoW/DoM that was, if not BiS, at very least competitive
On another side, gatherers built up mats which crafters needed, and purchased new gathering gear which helped them
On the third side, crafters bought and acquired mats and made gear for themselves and sold gear for others.

Everyone was able to participate and everyone benefited from it. With the lack of things to sell at the top end, this system is broken. It's become two separate endgames now -- DoW/DoM and Crafter/Gatherer ... not one system that interacts at the top level. And of course ... while you're leveling to 60, you get several full gearsets of HQ gear as quest rewards ... for War and Magic both. I think that's more insult to injury personally.