Why not just make everyone a DPS?

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

Those who are refusing to give their all to this end are holding the team back. This isn't just applied to tanks.

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I don't think anyone is really refusing it's just they don't like this type of design where a tank basically just feels like a dps that happens to have the mob's attention. Almost everything about reducing damage is passive or is just press cooldown when you see big cast bar. Look at the converse, imagine raids were designed so that dps classes had to build for mitigation, and had to use a more defensive stance for 80% of the fight. I think dps would be rightly saying "I didn't sign up to tank I signed up to dps." People can call me a role purist but I think the design of content should be such that each role focuses on maximizing it's role. Dps should maximize dps, healers should maximize healing, and tanks should maximize mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

Those who are refusing to give their all to this end are holding the team back. This isn't just applied to tanks.

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Yeah, this particular argument isnt about refusing to give their all. As a Paladin main, I bought pentamelded jewellery, I run HQ Drac Str pots every raid, I coordinate with my healers for when it's fine to sword oath on faust/oppressor/whatever to crank out the extra damage, I do everything I can to try and compensate for the fact that as a Paladin I'll be putting less damage on the field than a Warrior. I can't remember the last time I had to remotely think about optimising my tanking ability in Alex Savage other than just knowing what cooldown rotation to use.

It's not about refusing to give their all. It's about feeling that the focus of minmaxing and theorycraft for tanks in 3.0 is entirely weighted on optimising DPS output and that just isnt as fun for -some- people as optimising mitigation/tankiness. It's a "feel" thing, and it's the kind of thng that's making players like me consider swapping roles because tanking just feels so different to how it did in 2.5, even though the new abilities we got technically made the classes more fun and interactive.

Tanking feels different in focus now, and something about it feels "off" compared to previous content.

wow.. Tanking is no different now, than it was before. The only thing different now is that you are not over geared for the encounters this time around...

Did you clear T5 in greater than ilvl 80? Then you were over geared.
Did you clear T9 in greater than ilvl 100? Then you were over geared.
Did you clear T13 in greater than ilvl 120? Then you were over geared.

I would be bored out of my mind swinging my huge 2h axe and hitting like a useless wet noodle.

I still want to be a tank, but I like hitting hard, but slow. Or how it is currently with a lot of weak- medium and some large hits.

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

wow.. Tanking is no different now, than it was before. The only thing different now is that you are not over geared for the encounters this time around...

Did you clear T5 in greater than ilvl 80? Then you were over geared.
Did you clear T9 in greater than ilvl 100? Then you were over geared.
Did you clear T13 in greater than ilvl 120? Then you were over geared.

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Your numbers for t9 and t13 are wrong and lower than the min. Ilvl to get in. Even if the progression based groups did it at lower, you cannot get in now at such ilvls, so its hardly overgearing.

Anyway, i remember bringing this concern up before. Dps classes either need their own branching out or their damage abilities brought out. Df restrictions shouldn't be the only reason to invite your local blm. :)

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Your numbers for t9 and t13 are wrong and lower than the min. Ilvl to get in. Even if the progression based groups did it at lower, you cannot get in now at such ilvls, so its hardly oveegearing.

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Except your talking about when they added echo as well. You are in the wrong 100% here, so stop trying to deny it. I beat T8 at ilvl 93, and no. it was not hard when my entire group was also ilvl 91-93.

The only reason those ilvl enforcements exist is because it expects you to no longer need communication because of how damn easy the fight is when your that over powered.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Your numbers for t9 and t13 are wrong and lower than the min. Ilvl to get in. Even if the progression based groups did it at lower, you cannot get in now at such ilvls, so its hardly oveegearing.

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The ilvl req to get in is intentionally higher than what is required to actually clear the fight. You are, technically, overgearing it by wearing the required ilvl to go in. Which is weird, but it's still a true thing, and ZDamned's example was more to showcase that fights are easier with more gear and working with less requires more out of the individual players.

I wasn't addressing this to any particular class and wasn't addressing the limitation of any particular class. Obv a Pally doesn't put out the dps of the other two but this is the trade off in particular for that class. The tanking meta as dps focused has more to do with them dropping the savage raid with a higher ilvl in mind and therefore requiring more team dps. The content can still be cleared with a pally but is easier with a tank that can output more dps. There is more of an emphasis on dps for tanks currently but this will only be until people gear up further. Personally I like the emphasis on dps as a tank more than not. The tanking in this game is painfully boring without some other element just do to the nature of the way we interact with enemies. Some people may like it tho so it's different for everyone. I found tanking in 2.0 to be painfully boring outside of trying to single tank things as a war or brand new content when we were still undergeared.

Oh I definitely agree with ZDamned about the ilevel requirements. The issue is more that, at least in my mind, if a TANK is barely at the ilevel requirement for a super hard raid encounter, then surely they should be concerned about minmaxing to optimise their survivability above all else. If a tank can waltz into an encounter wearing strength accessories, spend half the time tanking it in Sword Oath/Deliverance, and have no more difficulty than when geared out to the hilt then something is weird about balance.

It just feels like the incentive in 3.0 raids is much more highly swung in favor of squeezing out every last teeny tiny bit of DPS from healers and tanks, rather than having healers and tanks prioritise being able to actually stay alive and have no real test on that front. I may be wrong but i certainly don't recall MTs on T13 initial clears wearing full slaying sets and spending half the time tanking Bahamut in sword oath (not that I was part of the first clears of course!)

I think the issue is mostly due to the fact that A1S and A3S have much more -hard- enrages than just harsh dps checks. It's literally X DPS in this timescale or you wipe, whereas earlier content tended to be more about low dps meaning the next cycle of mechanics might be harder to deal with, so you'd get overwhelmed but the leeway was just about there.

The fights are tuned to be taken on with the gear that they are dropping with in about a ten level range (i70 - 90, i90 - 110, i110 - 130 for coils respectfully). They are ranges the begining turns are tuned for the lower end of the range while the later turns are tuned for the top end.