I'm not even going to bother tanking 24x raids in 3.0

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

Pandering to less than ideal parties is where Donjo's condition #4 (which I didn't object to) comes in.

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Ah yes, apologies I seem to have skimmed over that line when reading the original post, should have finished my morning coffee it seems.

And to be fair the tanks I seem to see are the ones who are just over the ilvl requirements and have little interest in tanking in the first place, which is where my bias is probably coming from and isn't really the point you were getting at so again, sorry.

I do however feel that some of the aspects of the current state of the game do lead to bad habits in newer tanks who don't know why other tanks don't tank in stance or why they use STR accessories, doing something without knowing why is never a good thing.

Assuming that you just switched to tank and people keep telling you that you don't need tank accessories you'll never get them and if people keep telling you don't need to use your tank stance you'll never use it, so you'll never think about the benefits of using it and switch to it yourself unless someone thinks to mention it.

Even then I've seen tanks who have refused to switch when ask by healers who have been struggling to keep everyone topped off.

But as I said earlier in this post I am clearly reading this as someone who isn't confident in the tanks I am seeing when I'm not tanking and not the tanks that read these forums who are good at their job.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

Your rules 1-3 are inflexible and don't really take into account the current state of the game.
With a competent party, there is no content in the game ATM that can't be tanked in full slaying accessories.
FCoB doesn't need it (with echo being so strong) and savage coil doesn't need it either. (With how strong i130/135 left side pieces are and the stronger heals/shielding these days.)

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My point is that doing those things means that you aren't a Tank. Sure, you're getting hit by the monster and you're holding aggro and such... but you aren't a Tank. Does that means that you're going to fail? Not if your party is competent and filled with people you trust to have your back, as you've stated. This isn't a "you're playing the game wrong!" treatise; it's just a matter of attitude and mindset. Are you a Tank, or are you a durable DPS? Which one is best for your party right now? One should always be the one that's best for their party. If the situation says it doesn't matter, that's when personal preference makes the decision. For example, I prefer to be in between the two extremes. By wearing pentamelds and putting my bonus points in Strength, I have 1.5k more health than the extreme durable DPS(ie. full Slaying accessories) while having a DPS ceiling only 12-15 points lower than them.

My biggest problem here is the predilection of the community to tell a new Tank something along the lines of this: "So you want to be a Tank? Step 1: Stop thinking like a Tank." It's just poor advice to give to someone who is barely grasping the breadth of their job and raises the bar higher for a role that not many people want to play in the first place.

Of those points, I would say that breaking 4 is the big cardinal sin. You're not alone; you're in a party of people who are expected to work together to achieve a goal. If a Tank cannot listen to, work with, and adapt to their party, then they're just letting that party down. This is one of the biggest failures anybody can make, and it isn't limited to Tanks.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

My point is that doing those things means that you aren't a Tank. Sure, you're getting hit by the monster and you're holding aggro and such... but you aren't a Tank.

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Actually, it's the basic definition of a "tank" :p

Of course, stance dancing is far from the first step of high level tanking, but it's still good to explain that as a "higher" goal.
That's why I didn't say that "MT = Tank stance, OT = Not tank stance" was "bad", just that it was "narrow"

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Actually, it's the basic definition of a "tank" :p

Of course, stance dancing is far from the first step of high level tanking, but it's still good to explain that as a "higher" goal.
That's why I didn't say that "MT = Tank stance, OT = Not tank stance" was "bad", just that it was "narrow"

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Basic, sure. But that means it's not the full picture. If one thinks they're a Tank just becuase they're getting hit in the face, that is also extremely narrow. When it all comes down to it, Tanks are enablers. By doing what is expected of their role, they enable everyone else to do theirs. Their job isn't merely to hold hate. It isn't to get hit in the face. It isn't to hit the enemy back. A Tank's job is to do everything in their power to make sure their party can perform at the very best of their ability at all times.

At the end of the day, shooting your survivability in the face is more likely to cause a failure in this goal than a success. If there is any uncertainty whatsoever about a party or situation, it is always better to start by defaulting to defense and then transitioning out of it when appropriate.

I tank with a few pieces of crafted and slaying accessories. On single targets defiance will only be used with unchained and for incoming big hit. If I see the healer is struggling I'll put it back on until I have defensive cooldowns ready to use again. As a tank you are also hitting things so you'll want to do as much damage as possible to further enhance your aggro building and kill things faster. I try and maximize damage as much as possible while being aware of mitigating damage.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

A Tank's job is to do everything in their power to make sure their party can perform at the very best of their ability at all times.

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You're right...but it's also true for the tank, and stance dancing, at the right time, is part of this.
For example, VIT accessories are simple and good, but once you reached to "required HP threshold" for whatever you're doing, it's best to pack a little more STR. That's also why in-progress-tank generally put their stat points in VIT then switching to STR.

Experience and quick judgment is what reduce the uncertainty.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

Just make the run slower despite there being no difference in which stance you're in due to being over geared for content, because if you're keeping hate, positioning the mobs right, and lowering damage to the point the healer only has to drop a cure on you every now again you're still not a tank because you don't got your tank stance up due to reasons unknown to me. But you still suck cuz no Shield oath or defiance you...durable DPS you...

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Fix that for you.

You know, I always wondered why there are people out there who are afraid to tank dungeons. After seeing the argument that suddenly started in here, now I have a better idea as to why. Since when did massive DPS output become a requirement to even be considered a good tank? Makes me glad I don't pay attention to forums much.

I'd consider dropping my own opinion on this, but people tend to never agree on anything, so I'll refrain and just stick to tanking the way I tank dungeons. I'll just say that both sides make points, Donjo included.

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Originally Posted by TruebladeNuke

You know, I always wondered why there are people out there who are afraid to tank dungeons.

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1) Initiative and leadership. The tank is the de facto leader of the group, setting the pace of pulls, starting off boss fights, deciding where the group will go, and so on. A lot of people avoid leadership positions like the plague because there's a lot of psychological pressure that goes into leading (taking responsibility for errors, working to keep the group together, etc.).

2) Dependency and personal danger. Tanking involves putting yourself (in the form of your character) in a situation where you have the distinct possibility of dying. Your ability to survive is largely dependent on the skill of another group member (the healer), and you have limited ways of postponing your own death without them. While this is true for everyone in a group to a certain extent, the relationship between a tank and a healer is especially obvious.

The whole "people want to do lots of damage" thing is a bit of a red herring. Even in the days of the Vengeance mechanic in WoW, when tanks could deal stupidly high amounts of damage, tank queues were still basically instant and DPS was waiting around for 15+ minutes. It has a lot more to do with the psychology of the tanking role and the expectations around it than with numbers, which is why every attempt at incentivizing the role has only mildly helped the issue.

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Originally Posted by TruebladeNuke

Since when did massive DPS output become a requirement to even be considered a good tank?

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To generate aggro, you must hit the boss. It is a core function of your job to contribute DPS in some way.

If a DPS gains 20 DPS from doing X, it's no different from a tank gaining 20 DPS from doing Y. That's +20 raid DPS, and that's important.

If you choose to ignore optimizing DPS, you are ignoring one of the most important aspects of being a tank. Yes, it is not the MAIN priority (staying alive) but it does help with your second priority (holding aggro). As an OT, you really have no choice but to maximize your DPS as for a good portion of the fight you aren't really tanking anything. Sometimes this isn't the case, such as T12, but in general (T10, T11, T13) you're just whacking on the boss until you have to tank for a tiny bit. At that point, Parry severely loses its effectiveness and Det/Crit skyrocket... but that's besides the point.

The main thing you need to know is that tank DPS is important. You have no choice but to contribute to DPS in some fashion, and to help your group to your full potential you should be maximizing every aspect of your job.

If, however, your definition of a "good" tank is just someone who doesn't lose aggro and doesn't die, then yeah, enhancing your DPS would fall under the "advanced" category. My standards may just be a bit high.