Who actually got conj , so that hey could be a dmg mage ?

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Just because you saw a blue car on the road today, does not make everything you see that is blue a car............that is a the type of logic you are putting up all other the forums.......Does that statement not seem illogical to you?

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The Biased sample fallacy gets dropped on the forums everyday, I don't even think most people know illogical fallacies on this forum (see there usually logical fallacies, but in this forum they are so ass backwards their illogical fallacies, so illogical people don't see the fallacy and think they're true, i made it up of course but damn there needs to be a new level for this forum), but I don't really think his statements fall into this category anyway. Just saying seems close to no one on this forum probably has taken basic logic or knows how to construct an argument let alone a basic syllogism from what I've read lol, any attempt to educate is probably falling to deaf ears.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Abilities that are in FFXI are not "franchise abilities" just because they were in XI.

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But it's still an example. THAT is the point. It supports the idea rather than being the idea itself. There are plenty of other angles as well which contribute to his argument.

I look at the history of the jobs/classes in previous FF titles. I look for consistent elements to find the most probable outcomes for the jobs and classes. FF has been going on for 23 years and over those 23 years certain elements remain the same. I don't just refer to FFXI.

I've noted that the white mage and other elements change with games. In FF4 the white mage, Rosa, was an archer too. Do I expect SE to make our white mages a job for archers? No, that was one game. In FF3 the white mage is give Aero spells, since the class was given to the characters by the crystal of wind. That is the only time I found that job given a elemental spell. The white mage is consistently given heals, buffs, and holy spells. The Holy DD spell is an iconic spell of the white mage and generally the only class able to cast it. I could beat this dead horse more but I think I have enough drive my point. The white mage has consistently been in FF a holy spellcasting class. I don't see SE changing this for any game. The white mage is an icon of the FF series. SE even have them do appearances in other games to represent SE.

http://www.mariowiki.com/White_Mage

SE is not going change the white mage into conjurer, a druid elementalist, due to this. No more than Nintendo is going to change Mario from a plumber to a carpenter. Is it a subtle reason, yes. But the driving force for this logic is the fact holds true for the black mage.

I will not go over the black mage in detail, this time again, but the same holds true. The black mage has always been an elemental nuker. Have the other spells changed over time? Yes, but the elemental nuke have always been there in every FF that black mages are there.

I'm not trying to focus of the spell elements of the classes, but the defining elements of the jobs and classes themselves.

Do you your own google research, see what you find.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Doesn't sound like he would of stayed in the game anyway. Its an armory system, all he had to do is level another class, in which he would ghave the benefits of the con levels he had gained. Also, if he allowed others to tell him his role, and tell them how to play, thats his fault. If he rage quit because of that and blamed SE he was wrong. Anyone who lets others dictate how they play there own account does it themselves.

I am sorry that you friend quit, but from what your saying here, sounds like your trying to incorrectly blame others.

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Actually it really isn't that simple. He wanted the BLM role, and CNJ was originally supposed to fulfill that, then the players (and then SE) pigeonholed them into "healing onry" through use of preferred tactics, new spells, etc. Simply saying "go level a new class" is pure BS and doesn't solve the problem at all. It's not a matter of letting himself get pushed around, it's a matter of "play this way or we won't use you". He never rage quit, he just lost all hope in the game because everywhere he turned it was just more let-downs.

The blame rightly goes on SE because they lured players into believing the class was designed for a BLM purpose (or as multipurpose) then pulled a fast one and slapped them with a singular role, healing.

I've been showing him updates and what the plans are, etc, but he is still skeptical, and rightly so. "SE promised things before and they never came." he says. He's a very "staple MMO player" and SE should take note of how to NOT lose the common MMO public. He's giving it another chance, but this is the last one. SE needs to step up their game. Literally.

I'm a little easier to please I guess, I don't share many of his views and am pretty happy with the way the game is so far and where it's headed. I only voice the concern because what good is an MMO if your friends won't join you in it?

i think what hes saying is the elemental spells are nowhere near the nukes that thm have. I can understand being disappointed with the way some of the changes have shaped your fav class.

Yeah it is that simple, as well as debunking the claim to "look for consistant elements, that was proven by the attempt to compare martyr from XI only, to sacrafice. Comparing the only heal that a THM has to one of many of the WHM has, in an attempt to support the idea that CON will be BLM simply because it hase elemental spells is more then an illogical stretch.

Lore of nature, elemental powers (also nature related), and Cure are much more logically applicable to WHM then those with lore to study dark arts, sacrafice there own life to heal yours, and spill there blood in a rite to raise magic accuracy.

The concept of BLM is straight DD nuke damage, the fact that it was elemental nukes is obviously irrelavent in this situation.

Anyone can post all the links they like to FFXI. It doesn't change the facts.

posted above is the phrase
"The black mage has always been an elemental nuker. Have the other spells changed over time? Yes, but the elemental nuke have always been there in every FF that black mages are there."

Does that trump the fact that cure has always been a WHM spell?

Its your main focal point for your side of the debate that elemental spells have belonged to the BLM thus CON will be black mage. Has cure been less relavent to WHM ?

Is the spirit and concept of BLM based on there nuking damage output or they fact that there nukes are elemental? I centainly thought BLM was a DD nuker first and fore most making the nature of the particular nukes themselves irrelavent , more so in FFXIV.

Again I ask, how does elemental nukes weigh as more evedince of Con being a BLM then cure does of Con being a WHM ?

If CON isn't going to get WHM, then wouldn't they have to move all the known white mage abilities over to THM? Protect, Shell, Cura/Curaga and all that...

And I don't see why people are saying they're FORCED to heal as CON... I've dpsed as CON a few times, but I enjoy healing so I don't mind if I'm the only CON and it falls to me to be the healer. If you don't want to heal, then just try to find someone who can and then go as DPS CON yourself.

On another note, would anyone actually pick a THM to be the main healer? And I don't mean tossing out the occassional heal, I mean properly playing the healer role.

Edited because I scrambled up what I was trying to say.

THM is a much better healer in a small group or if the mobs you're fighting hit single targets only, IMO. The regen from Sacrifice is awesome and why THM aoe spam healing was so overpowered, especially because you always get yourself in THM aoe so it counteracted the HP cost.

For now I don't think THM is going to end up getting BLM or WHM, with CON getting one of them at first. Someone in another forum thought it would be an interesting thing if SE counterbalanced the recent spell changes (CON become better at healing, THM becoming better at nuking) by giving them an opposite specialization for more options (IE: CON getting a Nuking job and THM getting a Healing or some other support-style Job). I have a feeling if these changes stick, that that is what they're going to attempt to do at first.

Of course any speculation could be outright negated by the class changes they're going to propose when 1.19 hits, although I have a feeling it will be more class or spell mechanic changes rather than just a change in spell lists. A lot of the info we're going on is practically archaic too, so it's probably best not to dwell on Jobs for now.

I might be wrong on this but I think they may have taken out the traditional BLM and WHM tags for the entire purpose of redefining the purpose of both classes as they saw fit with the THM and CON tags. I have found both classes to be good and bad at certain things. To me they are both just broad base classes that will be eclipsed by roles/jobs when they come out in the respective roles as healer and/or DD. From what I can see, that was done to keep them both from suffering from the glaring faults and shortcomings of the roles. Besides, abilities like Trancendance nullify most points I have seen so far. With both classes leveled I do not see much difference between a CON or a THM casting Scourge II or Fire II. Fire II may be weaker overall right now but BLM will change that.

Agreed Mortikhan. I think that while you can model your char on past jobs, with the ability to slot affinity traits you will have much more freedom to play newly revised roles. To be honest, THM looks a lot more like RDM to me than BLM-but without the combat element. I think it is going to be set up so that you can have a RDM similar setup by blending THM and FNC jobs. Or maybe a WHM-type jobs will be found by blending CON and MYS. You can decide the strengths of those roles by choosing which of the two you want as your main.

I don't know what's going to happen, but it certainly seems that for a GLA to tank, he must have skills from other trees. For DD's to be more effective, utilizing skills from other trees is beneficial also.

I see the potential for so much more than the jobs of the past.