Nin TP Increase: Too Much?

Huton does affect attack speed so there is no way around it, no matter what you do, dropping Huton is a huge DPS loss.
If it would only affect Skill Speed it would be an option to drop it from time to time when you're getting low on TP, however it does not.
It's almost like telling a monk dropping GL from time to time would help him.

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Originally Posted by Ressus

Well why should I use goad if i'm going to need paeon anyway.

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You should use goad because you care about raid DPS and not just your own. How is this even a question? As for whether playing paeon for just one person is worth it.. not really. Self control and proper management of TP are more beneficial to raid DPS than pampering your NIN with MP that could be used for Foe's and not lowering BRD damage by 20%.

It's the same with SMN that ask for Ballad. Unless they just died and don't have aetherflow ready to go it is not worth it. Just gotta learn to manage their MP better just like physical DPS need to learn TP management.

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Originally Posted by Ressus

Is the attack speed increase from huton affecting auto attack speed? If not it would actually be benificial to not always keep huton up if you don't have a bard to sing paeon. And that would mean Yoshi-P flat out lied as he said this change would not change our rotation.
I really don't understand why the tp increase was necessary. Not needing paeon for the group was cool. Well why should I use goad if i'm going to need paeon anyway. This made an awesome skill into a skill that is not fun to use anymore.

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How exactly does the slight increase in NIN tp cost eliminate the utility of Goad? /perplexed

"I'm going to run out of TP so you don't get my TP regen, now BRD lower your damage and play me Paeon" That's about the most selfish argument I've ever heard lol

"I can't cast Eye for an Eye on myself, so guess what tank you're not getting it either"

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

You should use goad because you care about raid DPS and not just your own. How is this even a question? As for whether playing paeon for just one person is worth it.. not really. Self control and proper management of TP are more beneficial to raid DPS than pampering your NIN with MP that could be used for Foe's and not lowering BRD damage by 20%.

It's the same with SMN that ask for Ballad. Unless they just died and don't have aetherflow ready to go it is not worth it. Just gotta learn to manage their MP better just like physical DPS need to learn TP management.

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Now care to explain how you manage TP right? I'm talking about perfect execution of Invigorate and as much uptime on the boss as possible.
You're not telling us to just suck it up and starve until Invigorate is ready, while you get goads, right? Right?!
I mean I do use goad and rotate between our BRD and MNK but when I really need TP I expect the BRD to sing.
Since I play on EU servers mudras are sluggish as hell and cut alot into my GC so I won't be running into TP problems anytime soon but I can imagine that for US and Japanese players it's a different story.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

Now care to explain how you manage TP right? I'm talking about perfect execution of Invigorate and as much uptime on the boss as possible.
You're not telling us to just suck it up and starve until Invigorate is ready, while you get goads, right? Right?!
I mean I do use goad and rotate between our BRD and MNK but when I really need TP I expect the BRD to sing.

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I am talking about maximizing raid damage. NOT one person's personal damage. In a stroke your NIN's ePeen setting I would Paeon all day.

All you need to know is: does a nin playing while bottomed out on tp loose more net damage than a brd losing 20% damage+opportunity cost of using that mana for foe. If nin bottom out is more raid damage loss than bard playing paeon, then bard should sing. Assuming the following to statements are true then it is actually useless to use goad.(don't know if these statements are true without a lotta math I can't be arsed to do atm)

1. Nin damage drop is > than bard paeon damage drop
2. Nin burns tp at the same rate or faster than other tp jobs in your group.

If both of those statements are true then goad has no purpose except after someone dies or situational (war overpower spam etc). If nin runs out of TP before the bard and it's a dps loss to leave the nin to suffer vs paeon then nin bottoms out, bard casts paeon, bard had more tp than nin to start, goad is superfluous. If those assumptions are not true then goad can be used to make them true. Eg: mnk bottoms out 1st then nin, then bard. Goad mnk to delay paeon until nin bottoms out=net gain in dps via goad.

Just see who bottoms out faster and Calc damage lost vs paeon and you have the answer on goad rotation usefullness. It's not about stroking epeen. It's about raid efficiency and it cuts both ways.

Yes, a GOOD melee dps bottoming out on tp is more raid damage lost than the brd sacrificing their 20% damage. In fact, if you have 2 melee bottoming out on tp, it is more raid damage lost than the brd loosing 20% AND the casters loosing foes combined. The longer the melee dps are bottomed out, the difference becomes even bigger.

I don't know why people think it's melee dps trying to stroke their e-peen, it always feels like brd is trying to stroke theirs by keeping their numbers up and ignoring melee dps, which in the end should be outperforming the brd anyway.

Edit: it helps when everyone is able to perform as close to optimal as possible. Letting melee dps bottom out is not good.

Nins should still Goad to prolong The use of paeon as long as possible.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

All you need to know is: does a nin playing while bottomed out on tp loose more net damage than a brd losing 20% damage+opportunity cost of using that mana for foe.

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Indeed. There is a bit of math involved and the difference might not be huge. But what I can say for certain is one of the better changes we made during our t13 progression a month ago was having me not use half a bar of MP for paeon in phase 2. Instead we decided that waiting for a full MP bar for Foe's would be better. It was one of the few changes that had us going from wiping at 2-3% from enrage to not even seeing the enrage Gigaflare cast on our first kill. Obviously the difference was not that alone, but we did observe a noticeable increase in raid DPS. This is with a MNK, NIN, BRD, BLM config. In a MNK + MNK or MNK + DRG config Paeon would be far more worth it. MNK + NIN? Not so worth it. 2 casters? Not so worth it.

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

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replying with anecdotal points isn't really helping your case, more so when you aren't even sure if that was the difference. in an add phase situation it's somewhat open to debate, yes; but paeon for 2 melee has always been better than foes for 1 caster in a dummy tier fight

and proper TP management? you realize nin is a class where their dots have the best TP per potency values right? lol. feel free to give ideas out for proper TP management. their main chain (se gs ae) has 3.94 potency per tp, their slash debuff chain (sg gs de) has 3.81 potency per TP, while mutilate has 4.5 potency per TP, and the shadow fang combo has 4.92 potency per TP. tell me your idea of "proper TP management" from these numbers; there's the given of the perfect invigorate and using invigorate on CD afterwards, but i'm sure that was a given. if you have any other ideas, you should enlighten everyone~

anyway, with NIN being almost at MNK level of tp drain, goad's use right now is basically for the BRD if he BV's a paeon and actually needs that TP, or for the MNK so they can use fracture in their rotations. deaths and physical aoe are other things you'd use goad on, but they really shouldn't be a factor

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

replying with anecdotal points isn't really helping your case, more so when you aren't even sure if that was the difference. in an add phase situation it's somewhat open to debate, yes; but paeon for 2 melee has always been better than foes for 1 caster in a dummy tier fight

and proper TP management? you realize nin is a class where their dots have the best TP per potency values right? lol. feel free to give ideas out for proper TP management. their main chain (se gs ae) has 3.94 potency per tp, their slash debuff chain (sg gs de) has 3.81 potency per TP, while mutilate has 4.5 potency per TP, and the shadow fang combo has 4.92 potency per TP. tell me your idea of "proper TP management" from these numbers; there's the given of the perfect invigorate and using invigorate on CD afterwards, but i'm sure that was a given. if you have any other ideas, you should enlighten everyone~

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My case is doing just fine. Thank you though. Paeon for two melee isn't always better because in this case one of them is NIN so the MNK isn't starved if Goad is used properly.

What is there to enlighten you about? You can talk down to me all you'd like, sure. It's not as though I've never mained a melee job. I've been a DRG, SMN, and BRD main for coil. TP management involves modifying your rotation whenever necessary to conserve TP. It does mean you lose a little DPS, but the idea is that the DPS you lose is less than the DPS lost by losing Foe's uptime as well as the 20% damage reduction to your BRD. You don't just run yourself to zero and stare at the screen completely baffled. You plan out ahead of time when you do in the case you are at 300 or less TP with Invigorate not coming for a while.

Do you feel as though SMN should ALWAYS use fester too and never conserve their MP? And beg the BRD for Ballad at all times even when the healers don't need it? Resource management is a great thing to learn.