White Mage vs Scholar - Why is White Mage lacking?

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

Slib If you're so adamant about Sch >>>>WHM, please attempt FCoB with 2 Scholars and upload your play through for all to watch.

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I'd love to try this, but unfortunately my other healer partner doesn't play Scholar at all :(

I've tried 2 White Mages a few attempts though.

I've even asked to solo heal Turn 10, but our other healer again only plays White Mage...nothing else ><

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Originally Posted by Slib

I'm going to take you as a troll from now on.

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Loose a debate, lets call the person who is disproving everything i am saying a troll. Excellent tactic there, really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

The issue here isnt the fact that i am not acknowledging that a scholar can do what you are saying. Its the fact that you are refusing to acknowledge what a white mage can do. Your arguments so far have been centred around "in this one unique circumstance, this is what a scholar can do. Why cant a white mage do exactly the same here?".

You think by severely restricting the ground on which this debate is being held over is some what logical. It is, however, nothing to do with logic, but manipulating circumstances to represent your conclusion. Its is crass, and base beyond belief.

It is well known pet A.I. In this game can lead to some undesirable actions, yet you seem to think you alone are immune to this, therefore its a non-issue in this debate you started about why scholars are so good and white mages are so bad.

Sebazy has pointed out some severe flaws in your arguments as well. Your response is to use energy drain to facilitate higher burst damage on a scholar (using all 6 stacks in your own words), thus you have just proven his argument for him. You have had to use a precious resource to do this, thus meaning those 6 lustrates are not there any more. Also you neglect to see that white mage burst damage is aoe, and single target burst damage is irrefutably better on whm than scholar (try using presence of mind in cleric stance and you will see how powerful whm burst damage is)

You then try and refute any rebuttle to this in a very clumsy manner. "Dont worry guys, no burst damage, i dont need those stacks, i have a whm here to pick up the healing slack". Who or what do you think is compansating for those 6 stacks that have just been used?

The title of this thread is white mage vs scholar - why is white mage lacking? It is not, and has never been "current high end game raiding, why does it seem to be tuned such that scholars skill sets and tools are needed more?" Nor has your argument so far been restrcted to current end game raiding.

The other main issue in this thread is, and this has been pointed out many many times by many many people, is that there is no sense of balance in your analysis on these 2 jobs. Non what so ever.

You may want to try and claim i am a troll, nearly all the posts by other on this thread agree with my stance and not yours.

Claiming someone is a troll is really just showing how weak your arguments are and how poor your articulation of these arguments is.

Killswitch already.....

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Originally Posted by Slib

Also, for the burst on Leviathan... 6 Energy Drains weaved between Shadowflare, Bio 2, Miasma, Bio 1, Aero on Leviathan with ruin 2 to get the last few energy drains out is a lot more burst than anything a White Mage can do.

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On a single target dummy, no selene and no pots, both jobs were meleeing for simplicities sake:

WHM = 420DPS at 15 seconds, 355 at 30 seconds. Aero 2 > Aero > Water aura > POM > Stone II + refresh dots

SCH = 330 DPS at 15.seconds, 300 at 30 seconds. Shadow flare > Drain > Miasma > Drain > Bio II > Drain > Bio > Aetherflow > Aero > Drain > Ruin spam with a refresh on Miasma, Bio and Aero

I didn't bother with pots as both jobs would benefit equally, you could make a fair argument that Selene should have been out for the SCH but that's ~20 dps tops over a long parse.

To further clarify, with my gear I can sustain 285ish DPS on WHM for 3:30 till OOM without using shroud. As SCH I can hold 300 indefinitely if I can burn all aetherflow charges and swift casts for DPS. There is no doubt in the fact that SCH is the better job for sustained damage especially when you factor in that they suffer far less when short on accuracy. However, my stance remains unchanged, WHM can flip a switch and front load substantially more DPS on demand than SCH both single target and AoE. SCH takes about 10 seconds to get their DPS going unless they have a pre dotted target to bane off.

And yes, the fairy can be a bit unruly with those Embraces if everyone in the group is low, adding a heel into your embrace macro is one option, but that just brings along different issues instead.

Both jobs have their niches and I'll say it again, they are balanced absolutely fine. T13 without a whm on hand really doesn't appeal as our gear stands at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

On a single target dummy, no selene and no pots, both jobs were meleeing for simplicities sake:...

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Just ran a quick check of the abilities both have, and their numbers over a given time. This isn't perfect, I know. Neither was your testing since it had Crits that might have procced for one more than the other in the 30 seconds of testing.

Here is a run down of abilities used at a given time and the totals...

I did this really fast, so correct me if I missed something.

Also I gave WHM presence of mind there. I did not count the fairy buff as I do not know its spell speed % given off the top of my head. But i gave presence of mind a .3 second reduction in cast time. Not entirely sure of its formula too.

SCHOLAR

80 ruin
150 x 6 energy drains
bio 2 35 for 30
bio 40 for 18
miasma 35 for 24 + 20
aero 25 for 18 + 50
shadow flare 25 for 30


2.5 sec = bio 2 + bio + energy drain
5.0 sec = swiftcast shadow flare
7.5 sec = Miasma + aero + energy drain
10 sec = ruin 2
12.5 sec = ruin 2 + energy drain + aetherflow
15.0 sec = ruin 2
17.5 sec = bio + energy drain
20.0 sec = ruin 2
22.5 sec = aero + energy drain
25.0 sec = ruin 2
27.5 sec = ruin 2 + energy drain
30.0 sec = ruin 2

350 + 900 + 560 + 400 + 300 + 300 + 250 = 3060 potency


WHITE MAGE

170 stone 2
150 x 1 fluid aura
25 for 18 + 50 aero
40 for 12 + 50 aero 2

2.5 sec = aero 2 + aero + fluid aura + presence of mind
5.0 sec = stone 2
7.2 sec = stone 2
9.4 sec = stone 2
11.6 sec = stone 2
13.8 sec = aero 2
16 sec = stone 2
18.2 sec = stone 2 + aero
20.7 sec = stone 2
23.2 sec = stone 2
25.7 sec = stone 2
28.2 sec = stone 2
30.7 sec = stone 2 + fluid aura

1870 + 300 + 420 + 350 = 2940 potency

Your methodology there is wrong :P you're adding up every single potency while that is not the case for 30s and you're also clipping DoTs here and there

2.5 sec = bio 2 + bio + energy drain - 0 + 0 + 150, Bio 2 wears off at 30s Bio wears off at 18s
5.0 sec = swiftcast shadow flare - +0 wears off at 35s
7.5 sec = Miasma + aero + energy drain - 35 + 50 + 150, Miasma wears off at 31,5s Aero wears off at 25,5s
10 sec = ruin 2 +80
12.5 sec = ruin 2 + energy drain + aetherflow - +80 +150
15.0 sec = ruin 2 - +80
17.5 sec = bio + energy drain +0 + 150 full bio duration +240 Clipped last tick of Bio -40
20.0 sec = ruin 2 +80
22.5 sec = aero + energy drain +50 +150 full aero duration +150 clipped last tick of Aero -25
25.0 sec = ruin 2 +80
27.5 sec = ruin 2 + energy drain +80 +150
30.0 sec = ruin 2 +80 clipped last tick of Miasma -35 partial aero duration (2 ticks) +50 partial Bio duration (4 ticks) +120 full Bio2 duration +350 full shadow flare duration +250 clipped 2 ticks -50

Total combined potency for 30s worth: 2885 potency

Also: Your cast-weaving can never be as perfect as you state in the list. There's always some clipping left and right due to animation. For example the first line of Energy Drain -> Swift Cast -> Shadow flare total CD time is longer than you imply.

Edit:

I'll make it easy for you on the white mage part without PoM with the exact same "method":
2,5s Aero II + Aero + fluid aura - +50 +50 +150, Aero II wears off 14,5s Aero wears off 20,5s. Next fluid aura 32,5
5,0 Stone II - +170
7,5 Stone II - +170
10,0 Stone II +170
12,5 Stone II +170
15,0 Aero II +50 full aero II duration +160 wears off 27s
17,5 Stone II +170
20,0 Stone II +170
22,5 Stone II + Aero - +170 +50 full aero duration +150 wears off 40,5
25,0 Stone II +170
27,5 Aero II +50 full aero II duration +160
30,0 Stone II +170 partial aero (2 ticks) +50 aero II doesn't tick yet +0
Total: 2450 potency

Even when throwing in a completely useless aero and not counting the next fluid aura in, this gives Scholar a 450 potency advantage. (160 potency loss on Aero II dot, 120 potency loss for using Aero II instead of Stone II, 170 potency loss for the next Fluid Aura if there was 2,5s more)
Scholars would lose 300 potency worth of DoTs being clipped at 30s - Unlike Aero II, these DoTs actually had some value for it's cast.
While about advantages: Scholars are starting with 3 aetherflow stacks right off the bat: This is 450 potency advantage once again.

Edit2: I typo'd more apparently :P

Aye, cries could well have skewed things, a couple of early stone II crits would have a far bigger impact than a dot or ruin tick. Kind of surprised to see you throwing ruin 2 in there though, I'm not a huge fan of it due to the feeling of GCD limbo as well as that increased MP cost.

A few notes otherwise, PoM gets me to a 1.87 cast with 502 spell speed. Also tally up the potency for the first 10 seconds:

SCH = 790

2.5 sec = bio 2 + bio + energy drain (150)
(3.0 sec = dots 75)
5.0 sec = swiftcast shadow flare
(6.0 sec = dots 100)
7.5 sec = Miasma + aero + energy drain (225)
(9.0 sec = dots 160)
10 sec = ruin 2 (80)

WHM = 1125

2.5 sec = aero 2 + aero + fluid aura + presence of mind (250)
(3.0 sec = dots 65)
4.3 sec = stone 2 (170)
(6.0 sec = dots 65)
6.2 sec = stone 2 (170)
8.4 sec = stone 2 (170)
(6.0 sec = dots 65)
10.3 sec = stone 2 (170)

It continues this way until 15 seconds with PoM gone and the whm losing GCDs to dot refreshes, at this point the damage evens out assuming the WHM isn't getting misses.

Oh, I should probably also add in:
If you're looking at pure potency, white mage loses the mind advantage it has over scholar.

A level 50 White Mage has 272 mind as Hyur Midlander
A level 50 Scholar has 260 mind as Hyur Midlander

Although amusingly, book melee is quite a bit more dps than cane melee!

WHM so wimpy =(

Lol I never meleed with it. Also I just quickly put those numbers together with just a quick review of each abilities potencies.