The future of Thief and Ninja (minor 2.2 spoilers)

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Originally Posted by rwyan

Steal doesn't have to be the concept of stealing items. Someone made an interesting point, "Steal" could be abstracted into the idea of stealing enmity - making the class/job/whatever a tank.

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Or outright stealing buffs from enemies and replicating them from allies. Bring a tank and you have yourself an OT. Bring a Bard and you have an extra burst dps. Half effect (double-AA Barrage as compared to triple), half duration. Finite charges available for theft, regenerating about one every 30 seconds, to a max of 4.

If you want the class (Thief) to be truly valuable / OP, just make it so you can only steal abilities you have cross-classed or else you can use steal to refresh the duration on an ability you already have by stealing it (refreshing half of the duration on Raging Strikes at full effect for the added duration).

You can also tag on an enmity-steal to that, and then place that enmity on someone else with another ability, 'Sabotage' or whatever.

If one still wanted to go with the item route (of 'Steal'), there would just have to be a way by which one could use basic items (healing and mana potions) for both damage and self-healing with a reduced CD on their use or else class-specific consumables (which likely would not actually take up inventory, being stored instead as buffs). If real consumables are used, Steal would basically keep your stock unlimited while in the dungeon, at the end of which the additional stock disappears.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Damage Taken -30% is a LOOOOOT, considering PLD "only" has 20% :p

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Paladins also have heavy armor, while Thiefs only have Light Armor. Huge difference alone right there, I'd almost say they warrant taking 50% less damage. And like I said, they could still combo for threat as a Scout, they'd just be a lot tankier at 30 and deal a lot more threat.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Or outright stealing buffs from enemies and replicating them from allies. Bring a tank and you have yourself an OT. Bring a Bard and you have an extra burst dps. Half effect (double-AA Barrage as compared to triple), half duration. Finite charges available for theft, regenerating about one every 30 seconds, to a max of 4.

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I'm all for this concept of a thief. I'm sold. I also liked how GW2 implemented steal as well (kind of like stealing abilities).

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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I do not see Ninja being released in this game and not using a ninjato/katana. There is a standard that SE goes by, as they create more games they fine tune them and build on them. That is like making Samurai use a long sword instead of a long katana.

From the CS what Yugiri does might not even be a elemental attack. In Final Fantasy purple represents the lightning elemental. What Yugiri did was red/orange color. It's up in the area if it is lightning related. To me Yugiri looks just like a assassin from Final Fantasy tactics. All ninjas in Final Fantasy are dressed in mostly black unless they are a main character from a offline version. Assassins do use standard daggers.

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And sorry, but "scoundrels" and "thieves" are pretty close in meaning.

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They are not one in the same. A Thief steals to provide but has a greedy demeanor and steals more than what they need, its is an actual black market job. A Scoundrel lives their life to be deceiving even when it has no financial return. My guess is that the class could be scoundrel and the job coming from scoundrel could be Thief.

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Originally Posted by LoLo

That is like making Samurai use a long sword instead of a long katana.

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Except Samurai didn't use Swords in past installment.
In Final Fantasy V, "Equip Katana" is even one of their two passive learnable skills.

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Originally Posted by LoLo

From the CS what Yugiri does might not even be a elemental attack. In Final Fantasy purple represents the lightning elemental. What Yugiri did was red/orange color. It's up in the area if it is lightning related.

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Maybe Yugiri didn't do a ligtning attack, but at least it's a magical one.

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Originally Posted by LoLo

To me Yugiri looks just like a assassin from Final Fantasy tactics. Assassins do use standard daggers.

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Assassin doesn't exists in Final Fantasy Tactics as a playable job. Celia and Lede are labeled "Assassins' and use Katanas or Ninja Blades. They even have Dual Wield.
In FFTA and FFTA2, it's the Viera equivalent of Ninja and uses...Katana, not daggers.

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Originally Posted by LoLo

All ninjas in Final Fantasy are dressed in mostly black unless they are a main character from a offline version.

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Since Ninja is a job, it's mostly used by the player characters and most of them are quite colorful.
As for generic Ninjas in FFT, males are blue and females are red. And in FFTA, they're purple. What color is Yugiri again ?

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Originally Posted by LoLo

I do not see Ninja being released in this game and not using a ninjato/katana. There is a standard that SE goes by, as they create more games they fine tune them and build on them. That is like making Samurai use a long sword instead of a long katana.

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In Final Fantasy V, they were classified as Daggers. In Final Fantasy VI, Shadow's special weapons were classified as Daggers. I see it being the same thing in this game, they'll be called Daggers, but they'll be Kunai and Ninja Swords instead. Edge is really the only Ninja I recall using Katana's. Every other game, Samurai's used his weapons. (FFV and Cyan in FFVI)

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Except Samurai didn't use Swords in past installment.
In Final Fantasy V, "Equip Katana" is even one of their two passive learnable skills.

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I didn't say Samurai used swords at all, I know they use katana. I'm starting to think you do not read what I write and that I might need to just ignore you because you just want to argue at this point. Also, sure Ninja used a dagger in a very old game but that doesn't mean it will do it again, and I hope not because using katana as Ninja is what made the job appealing.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Maybe Yugiri didn't do a ligtning attack, but at least it's a magical one.

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There are plenty of aoe DPS actions in this game that looks just like what Yugiri does in the CS. As of this moment, it can not be confirmed to be a magical action because all magical actions in this game have a casting animation. Look at Ninja animations in FFXI, to get a understanding of what Ninja magic might look like. Ninja cast with their hands to their mouth and their are characters that float around them ( 1:38 of this video --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b45ts9TaB4M.) Also... what Yugiri did in the CS could just be a cool action sequence that isn't even going to be a job action for the game.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Assassin doesn't exists in Final Fantasy Tactics as a playable job. Celia and Lede are labeled "Assassins' and use Katanas or Ninja Blades. They even have Dual Wield.
In FFTA and FFTA2, it's the Viera equivalent of Ninja and uses...Katana, not daggers.

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If assassin doesn't exist in tactics then what is this?
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/A...ctics_Advance)
Also All tactics games exist in the same world. By the way, this same game has both Ninja and Assassin as separate options to play as. Yugiri looks more like the Assassin job in this tactics game than the Ninja job that is within the very same game.

I never said ninja did not dual wield. If you want to have a conversatation with me, I need for you to not add words that I have never stated. Also in FFXIV you could equip two weapons and guess what? No one in the first version of FFXIV was a ninja. Equiping two weapons in the Final Fantasy series is not a Ninja only trait. The most recent example is Bravely Default where there were two traits, Dual Wield and Two Handed. Only one of those traits came from leveling a Ninja.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Since Ninja is a job, it's mostly used by the player characters and most of them are quite colorful.
As for generic Ninjas in FFT, males are blue and females are red. And in FFTA, they're purple. What color is Yugiri again ?

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I don't really understand what you mean by this. Player characters are created to stand out from the rest of the npcs, of course they will be colorful. If it is a special job armor it will follow the style of the series, which is black. The only thing purple on Yugiri is her hood.

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Originally Posted by Cariborne

In Final Fantasy V, they were classified as Daggers. In Final Fantasy VI, Shadow's special weapons were classified as Daggers. I see it being the same thing in this game, they'll be called Daggers, but they'll be Kunai and Ninja Swords instead. Edge is really the only Ninja I recall using Katana's. Every other game, Samurai's used his weapons. (FFV and Cyan in FFVI)

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They are Katana daggers, not standard daggers which is my problem. I wouldn't be appealing if Ninja used daggers that Thieves used instead of Katana daggers.

I don't know the history behind the "Ninja" as it exists in FF games - I started playing with FF7; played 8 and 9; and played 13.

But the idea of someone called a "Ninja" being put in a stand-up Tank role is just... wrong.

They ought to be single-target Glass Cannons; extremely-powerful single-target DD, attacking from behind, attacking from "concealement"; applying powerful debuffs - debilitating debuffs like Poison, Hamstring, Shoestring (Shoestring? Yeah... tied your shoelaces together while you weren't looking...)

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Originally Posted by LoLo

They are Katana daggers, not standard daggers which is my problem. I wouldn't be appealing if Ninja used daggers that Thieves used instead of Katana daggers.

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Yeah, but they can still be classified as Daggers and just look different. Summoners and Scholars use similar weapons, but they're different. Ninja and Thief would be the same.