"Open Style" vs "Rigid Structure" what do you want for the future of FFXIV

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rowyne

Pretty soon I'll be telling kids to get off my lawn.

---

Yeah I feel like that sometimes already.. I have to stop myself. lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morticous

there is something called creativity.. you can take mage spells and put them together with a DD job and basically make your own DRK (Example)..

Its funny how people cant handle choices.

---

It is funny. It makes me angry. As my friend below says you can make rigidness.. so all the whiners are gonna get is to take away my freedom.. and I'm.. A PATRIOT!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bojangles

Within freedom you can MAKE rigidness, within a rigid game design that is what you are stuck with. PEOPLE DEFINE YOUR OWN ROLES.

Also something else that was cool: We nearly failed a low lvl leve, but for the simple cause that we had other higher ranked classes we ran back over to those gnats and dropped them like proverbial flies.
that was an awesome feeling.

---

Excellent first post sir. You are absolutely right. People can define their own roles. It'd be nice if they woke up and realized that.

i like rigid for mmorpg and prefer the more flexible style for single rpgs usually.
But i also think that tweaking the system, perhaps restricting some more of the abilites, defining the abilities we had, or changing them so they feel more unique could have worked out as well. But since atm stats, gear, LVL vs LVL, leves, classes, abilities... EVERYTHING needs balancing and some even need a purpose at all, since they are close to useless or completely useless, i don't mind a revamp but i would love to get more information on their big plan especially what the battlesystem and class system is gonna be like.

The fact that it won't be finished by the release of the 2 dungeons gives me a bad feeling about the dungeons.
Unless the dungeons are pretty mindless hack and slay like the rest of the game is.. how can they design a dungeon if they change the battlesystem or are half way through a big change (perhaps its not big at all though, who knows).

I would rather see the battlechanges and jobchanges done at least 90% + tweaks later on. But not just a few changes, then dungeons, then the bigger changes after...
The dungeons/bosses will need to be redone again to offer the same or a better strategic challenge.
I wanna know their direction. Examples on how they are gonna fix mages. I wanna see examples. But that is too much to ask for it seems. Instead i see the same textures as i see every day and some chigoe mob types ... i so hope for great surprises...

I find it ironic that many of the peeps who advocate an "Open System where I decide what role I want to play and I decide how I want to play" continually rip the peeps who say they want a "Rigid System where I play a designated role in a party".

Wouldn't a truly Open System allow everyone to play the style they want? One person can play sandbox mode and another person can play a specific job/role in a party.

If you go back and read Tanaka's original vision, this is exactly what they tried to create. We all know they failed. But the failure was not because it tried to do both but rather because it was Sandbox (Open) only. There was no party structure and no job specialization. It was all "Solo-Easy Mode" content with no "Challenging-Party Mode" content.

Yoshi and team are now busy adding that Party/Job content that was missing while leaving the base Sandbox-Mode in place.

FFXIV was never meant to be one or the other (Open vs. Rigid) and they are not trying to make it into one or the other. They are still trying to deliver on the original promise of having content for both play styles.

Will XIV be doomed because neither camp is happy or will it succeed at being a hybrid? The (ftp) trial is still ongoing and evidence has yet to be submitted. We, the jury need to set aside preconceived notions and prejudices and judge the game on content we can actually play (evidence) and not on speculation (hearsay).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Davorok

I find it ironic that many of the peeps who advocate an "Open System where I decide what role I want to play and I decide how I want to play" continually rip the peeps who say they want a "Rigid System where I play a designated role in a party".

Think about what you are saying there. Yes it is truly open so you can play riged if that is how you choose to play. The reason people are giving others a hard time for choosing the rigid style of play is that it is already there but to see it you just need to use your *rainbow hands* imagination a little.

Wouldn't a truly Open System allow everyone to play the style they want? One person can play sandbox mode and another person can play a specific job/role in a party.

FF14 does this now. bar controls. I never played FF11 so my opinion is valid on the basis of how this game was SUPPOSED to be perceived by the general public. This game is truly unique and while FF11 may have been a great game it has marred your perception of its (FF14s) true potential

---

Please don't take me tearing into your post as a personal insult, I am using it to make example of my own points.

I'd lean more towards rigid.

But it doesn't have to be one or the other, I'd say about 3/4 structured as far as battle goes.
Quests could stand to be a little more open as well as the actual world in terms of terrain variation.

Structure vs freedom is actually a pretty big concept to work with and debate on which is better has affected man sense they began to think. one might argue that they ain't even complete concepts as to have certain freedoms, you must first have structure as a basis of that freedom. But I'll stop myself before I ramble.

No matter what kind of stat freedom the game might have doesn't really matter as everything is a spoon-fed map-marked and timer-based leve.

I haven't yet learned any leves name because they all feel the same.
Follow the arrow kill everything that moves rinse and repeat.

Hope for content-->get disappointed that they follow the same leve format...
Try NPC questing and try to pretend that the quest flavor wall of text screen isn't a leve screen.

Next to these restrictions caps and levels seem to matter very little to me as it's all the same anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bojangles

Please don't take me tearing into your post as a personal insult, I am using it to make example of my own points.

---

I don't take anything on these forums personally. Everyone has their opinions but allow me to "tear into your post" a little.

Quote:

---

Yes it is truly open so you can play riged if that is how you choose to play. The reason people are giving others a hard time for choosing the rigid style of play is that it is already there but to see it you just need to use your *rainbow hands* imagination a little.

---

What specific content is there currently in the game that requires a more rigid party-style play? This isn't a paper D&D game where we are supposed to "use our imagination" to pretend content is there that isn't. SE is trying to implement content specifically for strategic party-based play but it is the "Open Crowd" that is crying foul. There is already 50 ranks worth of Sandbox-Mode content and nothing for parties.

Wouldn't a truly Open System allow everyone to play the style they want? One person can play sandbox mode and another person can play a specific job/role in a party.

Quote:

---

FF14 does this now. bar controls

---

.
Dunno what you are trying to say there.

Quote:

---

I never played FF11 so my opinion is valid on the basis of how this game was SUPPOSED to be perceived by the general public. This game is truly unique and while FF11 may have been a great game it has marred your perception of its (FF14s) true potential

---

Where in my post did I say anything about FFXI? You are correct however in assuming I did play XI. I also loved it AND hated it. I fail to understand how my XI experience has "marred my perception"? You mean to say that any previous MMO experience (esp FFXI) voids my opinions of THIS game? I am sorry but that is just ridiculous.

XIV does have alot of potential but to achieve that potential it needs alot more content for both play styles. Then it will be truly unique as no other MMO has figured out how to do this yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Davorok

I find it ironic that many of the peeps who advocate an "Open System where I decide what role I want to play and I decide how I want to play" continually rip the peeps who say they want a "Rigid System where I play a designated role in a party".

Wouldn't a truly Open System allow everyone to play the style they want? One person can play sandbox mode and another person can play a specific job/role in a party.

If you go back and read Tanaka's original vision, this is exactly what they tried to create. We all know they failed. But the failure was not because it tried to do both but rather because it was Sandbox (Open) only. There was no party structure and no job specialization. It was all "Solo-Easy Mode" content with no "Challenging-Party Mode" content.

Yoshi and team are now busy adding that Party/Job content that was missing while leaving the base Sandbox-Mode in place.

FFXIV was never meant to be one or the other (Open vs. Rigid) and they are not trying to make it into one or the other. They are still trying to deliver on the original promise of having content for both play styles.

Will XIV be doomed because neither camp is happy or will it succeed at being a hybrid? The (ftp) trial is still ongoing and evidence has yet to be submitted. We, the jury need to set aside preconceived notions and prejudices and judge the game on content we can actually play (evidence) and not on speculation (hearsay).

---

nothing is stopping you from a rigid style other than the sp cap. you can create specialized builds, but for some specialized builds, the best thing is a hard monster, for example gladiator to excel, needs tough monsters. its the highest single target damage reduction. for being a pure healer you need stuff that hits people hard. This stuff exists, but only on higher than 10 levels exp, which they give no reward for.

the same thing happened in ffxi, when the focus shifted from killing IT monsters to zerging lower VT infinitely, pld blm whm smn all went down in value. DPS and DPS buffers with one cure person took control as the party of the norm, blm were forced to create blm parties. The SP reward system is to blame for many peoples beefs, and the lack of certain types of content.

the SP change is the main culprit

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neptune

What you're really saying is you're a baby and you want to suck on your spoon. You can't play well with others when no one but you defines the roles of your party. Just like a little baby, you're completely helpless to feed yourself your liquified food.

I, however, am gifted enough in imagination to be able to create my own outcome from the choices laid in front of me and I welcome the freedom it gives. Square Enix must not neglect you players who are not having a good time and so they will redesign the game for you, but that doesn't mean I will ever respect your lack of spine.

The openness of this game did correlate with its failure but that doesn't mean it caused its failure. To your lack of spine, lack of imagination, and baby urges, you can add lack of critical thinking.

---

...What? How does wanting a structure to the game equate to being a baby? You're the one with dreams of grandure, thinking that the game is only limited by your glorious imagination. Don't give yourself so much credit, it just results in no class structure and an inability for the dev team to create challenging content.

Insulting people because they recognise the totally unrealistic approach and dream-like ideals that Tanaka took on when making this game doesn't help your cause.

Don't be deluded into thinking that just because you're one of the 20k who stuck with the game means you're special.

Quote:

---

nothing is stopping you from a rigid style other than the sp cap. you can create specialized builds, but for some specialized builds, the best thing is a hard monster, for example gladiator to excel, needs tough monsters. its the highest single target damage reduction. for being a pure healer you need stuff that hits people hard. This stuff exists, but only on higher than 10 levels exp, which they give no reward for.

the same thing happened in ffxi, when the focus shifted from killing IT monsters to zerging lower VT infinitely, pld blm whm smn all went down in value. DPS and DPS buffers with one cure person took control as the party of the norm, blm were forced to create blm parties. The SP reward system is to blame for many peoples beefs, and the lack of certain types of content.

the SP change is the main culprit

---

You're completely right, it's the situation that calls for one structure to be used over the other. In the context of FFXIV, solo and low-man content will likely remain a place where you experiment and use the base classes to play so that everyone can heal and have access to lots of different abilities.

For instances etc, you NEED that structure to prevent it from being too easy, and allowing people to be able to deal with what will probably be the equivalent of 'IT' enemies in FFXIV. The mindset is different here, but if you carry on with the FFXI comparison, hybrid jobs really couldnt keep up simply because they didn't do anything to a satisfactory standard.

The other option is to go the Guild wars 2 way of allowing everyone to self heal and look after themselves, but balance it by making it a much more mobile action-y game and unfortunately I couldn't see the FFXIV team having anything that advanced in them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sephr

...What? How does wanting a structure to the game equate to being a baby? You're the one with dreams of grandure, thinking that the game is only limited by your glorious imagination. Don't give yourself so much credit, it just results in no class structure and an inability for the dev team to create challenging content.

Insulting people because they recognise the totally unrealistic approach and dream-like ideals that Tanaka took on when making this game doesn't help your cause.

Don't be deluded into thinking that just because you're one of the 20k who stuck with the game means you're special.



You're completely right, it's the situation that calls for one structure to be used over the other. In the context of FFXIV, solo and low-man content will likely remain a place where you experiment and use the base classes to play so that everyone can heal and have access to lots of different abilities.

For instances etc, you NEED that structure to prevent it from being too easy, and allowing people to be able to deal with what will probably be the equivalent of 'IT' enemies in FFXIV. The mindset is different here, but if you carry on with the FFXI comparison, hybrid jobs really couldnt keep up simply because they didn't do anything to a satisfactory standard.

The other option is to go the Guild wars 2 way of allowing everyone to self heal and look after themselves, but balance it by making it a much more mobile action-y game and unfortunately I couldn't see the FFXIV team having anything that advanced in them.

---

i just want to say most games make hybrids artificially weak, this game did not, a team of well designed hybrids can equal a team of purists in most cases, look at sports for a comparison.
You can design content that can work with both, but it needs to be difficult, nothing we have tests anyone hybrid or not.