Huh? Maybe I wasn't exactly clear.. Yes, all DDs should be using their DoT's, as it's all part of the maximum DPS output.. There is huge difference if people aren't using their DoT's - which I'm equating as equal to an additional DD. All I'm saying is, DoT all the things! LolQuote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
Warrior Tanks: Maximizing DPS Output
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02-12-2014, 07:22 AMwhiskeybravo
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02-12-2014, 11:13 AMbokchoyknI never said SE>BB>BB is something that was to be used. I simply said it shouldn't rip aggro from an conscious player with a 2x Enmity bonus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
I don't think SE>BB>BB>BB is a practical sequence. Opening with Tomahawk>SE> BB risks DPS pulling hate if they hit enough crits and procs in the first 8-10 seconds of the fight. Opening with BB>BB before going into other SE/SP combos is safer, even if it gains less total enmity in the long run. Enmity is a complete joke anyway. It's only important for the first few seconds of the pull, a newly spawned add, or a tank swap. Barring a dumbshit Paladin spamming Halone in Shield Oath, nothing should pull aggro from you.
As for Fracture, I don't use it while tanking because it doesn't contribute to Wrath stacks or maintaining debuffs. When not tanking, you don't have to worry about Wrath and you no longer have Inner Beasts clogging up our GCD's as you try to keep debuffs up. Defiance is off so you're getting more bang for your buck.
You and I have a different definition of "laughably marginal". I agree that it isn't groundbreaking, but at the end of the day, it is a DPS increase, Damage-per-TP increase, and its value is magnified by Berserk and Inner Release. -
02-12-2014, 11:57 AMKitruWhich is why you don't ever open with the SE combo. Opening attack strings are a different monster from sustained rotations. SE>BB>BB>BB is the highest enmity rotation that WARs have available to them; if you're looking to maximize your enmity, that's what you use (not that you should really *need* to maximize your enmity since the SP>BB>BB and SE>SP>BB rotations generate more than enough in most circumstances).Quote:
Originally Posted by bokchoykn
If you want to talk opening rotations, however, you shouldn't need to open with more than 1 BB combo to buy you time to do SP and then BB. Even if the DPS get lucky crits, a single BB generates more than enough enmity. The best opening rotation I've found is BB>SE>BB>BB>BB with proper usage of CDs (Bloodbath when you start SE combo, Vengeance after the first BB then Unchained then Berserk then Internal Release in each GCD afterwards; you generate a disgustingly huge initial enmity cushion).
Using Fracture adds less to your total DPS than Internal Release does, and Internal Release doesn't mess up buff/debuff uptimes or increase TP consumption. IR is the Foresight of DPS CDs so if something adds less than it, it's safely in the "laughably marginal" range since IR is already pretty close.Quote:
You and I have a different definition of "laughably marginal".
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02-12-2014, 08:52 PMbokchoyknWhy three BB combos after the SE? What's the point of that much of initial enmity cushion? Isn't that a bit overkill? You don't need to generate as much aggro as possible. You simply need to be out of reach of everyone else. The only person you're really competing with is a Paladin spamming RoH combo (hopefully in Sword Oath, but you never know...), and SE helps his enmity just as much as it helps yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
On top of that, any lead you build over him is wiped out as soon as he Provokes the target off of you. When you Provoke it back, he's right on your heels anyway. Because enmity is such a joke, you now has a massive enmity lead over everyone except for the only person who can actually take it off of you.
This "disgustingly huge initial enmity cushion" is useless. Generating max threat is only relevant for the first 15 seconds of the pull and the first 10 seconds or so after each tank swap. Your method might generate the most long-term enmity, but I think the focus should be on generating the most enmity over the first two combos.
Why are we talking about Internal Release again?Quote:
Using Fracture adds less to your total DPS than Internal Release does, and Internal Release doesn't mess up buff/debuff uptimes or increase TP consumption. IR is the Foresight of DPS CDs so if something adds less than it, it's safely in the "laughably marginal" range since IR is already pretty close.
Fracture is higher damage-per-second and damage-per-TP than any other Warrior ability when Defiance is down. If it results in one Storm's Eye not benefiting from the previous Storm's Eye, it's still a DPS and DPTP increase. If you use Fracture only when you're in SP-SE-SP-SE mode, that's fine. You can say it's "laughable" but it comes at no cost to you, other than a button on your hotbar. -
02-12-2014, 09:42 PMCaraway
On the Fracture topic, I've never looked at it so much as a major point for your DPS while you're actively engaging and attacking the mob, but instead as a means of mitigating a disconnect. I know it's not much damage, but it's something ticking away when I'm not able to actually hit the mob because of a mechanic I have to move away to avoid.
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02-13-2014, 01:39 AMShinkyo
I finally decided to parse myself on a dummy to test my DPS using ffxiv-app and just wanted to share some results. I've parsed myself until I ran out of TP so in 4-5 min sessions.
Gear: full myth set with Bravura Zenith
Stats allocation: 30 Vit
Food: none
Rotation: SE > BB with fracture always up, IB when up, Unchained+Berserk together when up, Internal Release when up, Infuriate + IB when up
Defiance with full allagan Tank accessories: 155+ DPS
Defiance with full allagan DPS accessories: 185+ DPS
Defiance with full gryphonskin accessories penda melded with VIT and CRIT: 175+ DPS
Didn't have time yesterday to try the same out of defiance but I'm thinking I should be able to be 200 dps.
I'd say it's decent for a Tank but we obviously get crushed by a DPS classes.
For comparison, my ilvl 80 monk with garuda weapon did 275+ dps and I've only reached lvl 50 yesterday so my rotation is far from perfect.
Still, I'm happy I finally took the time to test this myself :-) -
02-13-2014, 01:47 AMKitruYou're dramatically increasing the enmity cushion without sacrificing much (the third BB would be replaced by an SE or SP; delaying that debuff by 12.5 seconds isn't really a major cost given the ~30% increase in enmity generation over the initial 40 seconds). The point of the "overkill" is to provide you with an explicit cushion for using a low enmity but high damage and utility rotation without the risk of getting enmity pulled off of you. If you only use SE>SP>BB, a really good DPS is capable of doing more damage than the enmity generated by this. The substantially larger cushion afforded by using BB for a third time instead of limiting it to two gives you more space at low opportunity cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by bokchoykn
I'm referring specifically to the opening sequence of the fight which is the only time in a fight where I will actually attempt to absolutely maximize enmity generation because of the value of the potential enmity cushion. It's pretty much the *only* time I'll look to maximize enmity generation instead of simply generating *enough* enmity because the it allows for a very large window wherein you can still have enough while only generating a small amount of enmity.Quote:
You don't need to generate as much aggro as possible.
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Your method might generate the most long-term enmity, but I think the focus should be on generating the most enmity over the first two combos.
Because, since we were debating the relevance of the marginality, which is a comparative term, I brought up a similar contributor as a further example of what defines marginality which modifies the term "laughably marginal" to be a category of similar performance instead of simply a descriptor to a single absolute value. The absolute value of Fracture and Internal Release are both incredibly small, enough that most of the time, people never notice the difference between using and not using the given abilities beyond the act of using the ability.Quote:
Why are we talking about Internal Release again?
As I see it, an ability is a marginal contributor if it doesn't create a difference in performance if it doesn't provide a benefit larger than the natural variation in performance you'll achieve through situational variables, like movement and throttling requirements or lag, which is basically the only possible definition of marginal as it applies to this discussion. Unless you want to argue that *nothing* is ever a marginal contributor, which is simply naive, Internal Release is a relevant thing to bring up because it provides a reference point.
If you want another example of a marginal contributor, look at Brutal Swing. Using it is going to provide about as much as Fracture because it's 50 off-GCD potency every 20 seconds (75 potency every 30 seconds; Fracture is slightly less than 100 potency every 30 seconds, closer to 90 when you account for decrease in debuff uptime and extension of the total rotation by an additional GCD). The only reason that Brutal Swing is being observable in a pure damage scenario is because it has to be activated consciously, as opposed to being able to observe the effect in a tangible way (e.g. not just looking at the animation but rather the results of its use). If Brutal Swing were a macro'd ability set to be used on CD or some kind of trait that increased auto-attack potency by 50 for one attack every 20 seconds, you'd never notice the increase in damage unless you were using some specific tool to show minute deviations in performance (i.e. a parser).
Brutal Swing and Internal Release are appropriate to bring up in this discussion because they provide a frame of reference for marginality. Fracture provides a benefit on par with these abilities and, since those abilities are marginal contributors, Fracture is just as well. On top of this, because that marginality only looks at the increase in damage rather than relative consumption, Fracture is further marginalized by the higher opportunity cost in increasing TP consumption (recall, Fracture increases total potency/GCD by slightly over ~2% and increases TP consumption by a fraction of a percent less). You could never touch Fracture and never notice the difference. Even if you're using a parser, you're not likely to notice the difference in practical circumstances without an incredibly large data set because the benefit is so small.
On a similar level, consider Shield Swipe for PLDs: it's another marginal contributor. It provides a small increase in damage dealt and, more importantly, increase in TP efficiency, but the contributions are so small that you'd only notice them in the theoretical. Fracture is a marginal contributor for PLD as well (yes, it actually does end up being an increase in DPS to use it, but it's tiny). Every class has its marginal contributors, and Fracture is one of the more marginal contributors amongst those contributors that WAR has access to. -
02-13-2014, 02:24 AMYsarel
All this talk of hate problems... 2x Overpower at start is enough of a lead to follow with SE and not lose hate unless your DDs outgear you by a significant margin. Tomahawk on pull is outdated.
Two BB after SE should be plenty to lock in initial hate margin, particularly if you're stacking Berserk and Unchained immediately before using SE (you should be). -
02-13-2014, 03:48 AMbokchoyknOkay, you're arguing semantics and the usage of the word "marginal".Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
The bottom line is this: Fracture is a DPS increase, DPTP increase, and is really easy to implement into your routine. Use it. Same with Shield Swipe, Brutal Swing, Internal Release. Whatever adjective you want to use to describe their benefits is up to you. It's not worth writing a book about whether the words "laughably marginal" is appropriate. It's a completely irrelevant discussion. -
02-13-2014, 05:11 AMBushidoMP
Lots of good points, allow me to contribute.
For the sake of not relying on Lodestone's snapshot, I'll state my credentials and stats. Firstly, I played +30VIT warrior for a long time, and then I got bored of it and decided I wanted to see how hard I could hit. Since I've gone +30STR I would never EVER go back. Before I go any farther, let me state that I agree with OP in saying that I believe REAL BiS Warrior for any encounter is a healthy mix of VIT and DPS accessories to maximize the balance between Parry Rate and Parry%(the amount mitigated).
As it currently stands I wear full i90 dps accessories to ALL encounters in the game save Ifrit EX, for reasons that have already been stated by OP. In my current build, (I'll be changing 1 accessory today after some research), I'm weighing in at 469 STR, 416 VIT, 479 ACC, 424 CHR, 299 DET. However, I will be switching to 413CHR and 207 DET for a *marginal* increase in dps.
Moving on. At the current level of gear Full i90 + Allagan axe ... tanking in this game is pretty much a joke if you and your healers have some skill. I'll reiterate, I use my current build in all Extreme Primals except Ifrit, and in Coil 1-5. I do not main tank Twintania in my static, but I've had to take over after the first round of Twister and finished the fight no problem. The obvious weakness of this build it that I lack that extra HP buffer that's nice for tanking, but the DAMAGE is insane. Throwing some numbers out there: My highest Inner Beast crit has hit 1302 damage. I couldn't believe it. After that my upper end BB's hit for 1200+. Warrior is the class I've played from launch and I've had a lot of time to get comfortable in the class and change rotations etc. This is undoubtedly the most fun way to play warrior. While I'm sure it mostly speaks poorly of the DPS involved, I've been in EX Primal farming parties where I was doing top damage in the whole group. That being said, in a good group of DPS I can still keep up. I float between 4th/5th on the charts, but in my coil static I'm never gonna beat them in dps. I don't want to ramble, so if you have questions about specifics I will answer them.
As far as the enmity discussion goes, you can't argue with math. There will always be optimal rotations and the BEST way of doing things, however, that can't always be practically applied to a real scenario. At the end of the day it's going to come down to player skill and group cohesion. If everyone is "doing it right" then enmity shouldn't be an issue anyway, and furthermore using an all STR build you will hit so hard you shouldn't have problems regardless. I OT GarudaEX with Defiance off the whole time and the only time I have problems is when someone doesn't pop Quelling Strikes and start landing ridiculous crits. On the topic of tank swapping, again, group cohesion: your counterpart should know when to stop going buck wild so you can take over. The only time I've ran into problems during tank swapping is during IfritEX with an equally geared Paladin (Allagan blade) who kept spamming RoH combo. Most of the time, regardless of what the other tank does I can pull hate. I have noticed that while playing warrior this way, even with Defiance off, you must be careful to control your enmity, most of the time I have to spam Storm's Eye/Storm's Path because Butcher's Block just generates too much threat. That being said, I still hit like a truck and it's hella fun to play.
Fracture: I use it. It's definitely not the make or break it ability in terms of damage, but I feel there's plenty of benefit to using the move. Furthermore, I try to use it at strategic points in my rotation such that I maximize it's effectiveness and it doesn't interfere with my current optimal rotation for a given scenario (missing 1 GCD attack to place Storm's Path before a big attack, etc.) If you look at the numbers (in my case anyway), the DoT adds up, but the attack itself more-or-less adds up to the total effectiveness of Brutal Swing over the course of a battle; to corroborate Kitru's argument.
Rotation:
I've been experimenting, but usually as an opener I'll do something like this:
Defiance on
HS > SS > BB > HS > Bloodbath > Maim > SE > Berserk + Unchained > HS > IR > SS > Vengeance > BB > HS > Maim > Storm's Eye > Fracture > IB or Steel Cyclone || At this point Berserk and Unchained fall off.
Don't hold me to all the cooldown placements cause I'm just throwing that in off the top of my head and I can't say I don't switch it up. Also I throw in Brutal Swing whenever it's off cooldown. After that I just rotate between SE, SP, BB as I see fit to make
sure that I'm keeping debuffs going. I may or may not throw an extra fracture in there too, I forget, but I usually don't use Fracture when I have Defiance up, and I also ALWAYS save Berserk for pairing with Unchained. When I know I'm going to have that pair together I save IR for it as well, but if not I just use IR whenever it's ready, the cooldowns usually gel.
When I'm off tanking, it's an all you can Berserk, all you can Storm's Eye, all you can fracture-fest, and jut let loose. In the beginning of a fight you have to be careful of BB, but after the tank has established decent enmity you can pretty much do whatever you want. This is how I'm able to really push the numbers with warrior. It's a beautiful thing. Obviously in scenarios when I need to tank swap I Defiance dance accordingly and try to have Berserk+Unchained ready for when I need to take over so that I can maximize my dmg output while I'm MT.
tl;dr. Spec +30STR, wear Full i90 DPS accessories, Get allagan Axe, Hit things hard, Profit.