Omitting healer DPS from damage calculations makes it so dedicated DPS roles can meet required checks. A common complaint with Gordias Savage was it being literally impossible for DPS jobs to perform their role. In theory, this type of design allows the devs to experiment with non-DPS mechanics ala Refurbisher. Nevertheless, it doesn't mean you should be standing still. People fuss over it due to that reason alone. Take Zurvan EX. There are only two instances of heavy damage throughout the entire fight: the second add phase and Tyrfing. If both healers exclusively heal, one or both of you will find portions of the fight where you're waiting or simply doing nothing. Now this obviously does not account for potential mistakes along the way, but you should adjust to the mistakes as they happen or anticipate where someone might mess up. If we don't skip Soar, I'll drop Cleric on the chance people will screw up positions. Otherwise, whenever I off heal, I only drop Cleric to toss up secondary heals (Medica II) or if someone gets a bleed debuff, couldn't get into position for Biting Halberd and etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko
Refusing to DPS is not a play style anymore than a Bard refusing to sing or a Dark Knight keeping Darkside off to converse MP is. The game simply doesn't deal enough damage to warrant consistent healing nor is it reactionary to incentivising waiting for the next "big hit" as it's entirely predictable. Impatience isn't necessarily a factor. Once you start approaching higher level content, the expectation from players increases for everyone. Higher damage output allows for mechanic skips. Without healer DPS, it requires a higher ilvl and near perfect performance from your damage dealers and tanks to skip Lapis in A11S. People want to push those phases because once you've beaten the fight a couple times, that's where the enjoyment comes: seeing what you can skip and optimizing. Something to keep in mind is my emphasis on tanks and damage dealers. They have to perform optimally to skip Lapis. Is it not fair they expect the same from their healers?
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03-17-2017, 12:03 AMBourne_Endeavor
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03-17-2017, 12:08 AMRemus
I mean.. If a healer wants to just heal and nothing else I'm not dodging AoEs. They want something to heal so I'm giving them something to heal. :^)
If the Healer is doing DPS then I will dodge AoE so they don't need to heal as often. -
03-17-2017, 12:25 AMbswpaytonBut thats you I could care less if someone on my run learns how to dps on my run but causes wipes because they are putting in so called effort. Id much rather have a wipe free run period and if that means the healer only heals then please do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
Im not tryin to wipe in no dungeons, and sometimes dps happy healers have caused wipes because they said dps was low well I dont really care I just want to get out of here, when they came back and stuck to healing on the same run no wipes. Sometimes healers get carried away with there dps tryin to do to much , would I prefer them over safe healer that heals only not really Id much rather have a clean run in a dungeon get in and get out. -
03-17-2017, 06:27 AMAmalonStar
I'm all for speed runs and love them so long as it's fairly smooth. If there is a lot of wipes it's usually because someone is trying to meet the standard for speed runs that isn't comfortable or skilled enough to do them so in turn the run ends up taking longer than if pulls are a bit smaller.
For whatever reason some ppl just can't meet the expectations that are put on content whether it's due to lack of skill, lack of confidence, or because of anxity issues. A decent person would respect different play styles even if it's not to thier play style. I've run content where the tank has done small pulls where big pulls are normally done and everything aoe'd, drives me nuts but I just go with it trying to respect them that's they're pulling what they're comfortable with. -
03-17-2017, 08:00 AMbardabooSo extra dps should be a good thing, yeah? If you are ok with dps not knowing thrir rotation leading to a slower run why can't a healer learn to dps on your time? Sure you may wipe leading to a longer run, but if your ok with dps slowing you down whats the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by bswpayton
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03-17-2017, 08:18 AMClethoria
Man after that solid counter argument from page 1 it's a wonder why anyone would bother rep- just saw the tags
It all makes sense now. -
03-17-2017, 02:05 PMLunafreya
So many replies in this troll thread.
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03-17-2017, 06:31 PMKokonoeAiyokoThat in itself very clearly shows why it isn't necessary by design. And for the Gordias bit, even the devs mentioned they executed that incorrectly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
I've played this game a considerable amount of hours, hell I've been playing since FFXIV 1.0 beta, but since that's besides the point I want to talk about how I've never witnessed someone literally doing nothing. There are moments where a Healer "stands still", but you literally cannot get away with that for too long unless you are doing unsynced content. You have to Cure eventually, or use Cure II, watch your MP, watch the people in your party, watch the mechanics. I feel the "standing still" thing people say often is rather cynical. They are doing their job, they are healing you and the party. There may be brief a gap of seconds where an action isn't taking place, but Healer is something you play in real time or else the party whipes. The focus is there regardless if this occurs or not.Quote:
Nevertheless, it doesn't mean you should be standing still. People fuss over it due to that reason alone. Take Zurvan EX. There are only two instances of heavy damage throughout the entire fight: the second add phase and Tyrfing. If both Healers exclusively heal, one or both of you will find portions of the fight where you're waiting or simply doing nothing. Now this obviously does not account for potential mistakes along the way, but you should adjust to the mistakes as they happen or anticipate where someone might mess up. If we don't skip Soar, I'll drop Cleric on the chance people will screw up positions. Otherwise, whenever I off heal, I only drop Cleric to toss up secondary heals (Medica II) or if someone gets a bleed debuff, couldn't get into position for Biting Halberd and etc.
You say that the game doesn't do enough damage to warrant it, but what if that is also by design? What if that is there as a threshold so that more people can play the Healer class and not be overwhelmed?Quote:
Refusing to DPS is not a play style anymore than a Bard refusing to sing or a Dark Knight keeping Darkside off to converse MP is. The game simply doesn't deal enough damage to warrant consistent healing nor is it reactionary to incentivising waiting for the next "big hit" as it's entirely predictable. Impatience isn't necessarily a factor. Once you start approaching higher level content, the expectation from players increases for everyone. Higher damage output allows for mechanic skips. Without healer DPS, it requires a higher ilvl and near perfect performance from your damage dealers and tanks to skip Lapis in A11S. People want to push those phases because once you've beaten the fight a couple times, that's where the enjoyment comes: seeing what you can skip and optimizing. Something to keep in mind is my emphasis on tanks and damage dealers. They have to perform optimally to skip Lapis. Is it not fair they expect the same from their healers?
As for the Dark Side part, I'm going to vehemently disagree. I'm a DRK main, and Dark Side is practically required to Tank due to the damage mitigation and damage required for keeping aggro. Dark Side is so explicitly designed in DRK's kit for tanking that it's not comparable to Cleric Stance which directly hinders a Healer's kit and has no actual follow ups between any job's moves. It makes you do more damage, but it's not integral to your healing or buffing abilities. It's very basic and clearly meant to be there for Main Scenario play and FATEs. To be honest, with the way it's designed, it probably was made that way just so you wouldn't use it in a dungeon. Seems like a rather odd thing to add if they wanted us to DPS.
And for the main part, wanting someone to play optimally and trying to shame or force someone into playing optimally are not the same thing. You are referring to raids here, where usually the more hardcore/maniac type players give it their all optimizing as much as possible to win. You can very well create a Party Finder and ensure the Healer's that join are doing DPS for this content.
In other words, you set the rules of your own party, but the Duty Finder is anything goes and tolerance and acceptance of all play styles (to a reasonable degree) will go much further towards peace and entertainment than getting annoyed at "suboptimal" players. -
03-17-2017, 09:55 PMFreytOn the other hand, if I realize that you want to die so much then I'll probably just let you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remus
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03-17-2017, 10:40 PMNicodemus_Mercy
I don't get this argument. I mean I agree that healers should dps when they can, but the comparison is ridiculous. Healers have to dodge the same stuff that dps do while performing their role - healing. Dps dodge stuff while performing their role - dps. Saying that healers need to dps, heal AND dodge, is basically saying they not only need to perform their designated role keeping everyone alive, and dodge/do mechanics, but they also have to make up for dps roles sucking at their job.
Healers should dps when they can. When they can is determined solely by the healer and their familiarity level and comfortability with the content in question.
Healers not dpsing is in no way comparable to dps not dodging aoe. Healers have to dodge that aoe too while doing their job (healing), just like dps has to dodge while doing their job (dps).
There's valid arguments to be made on why healers should dps, but this is not one of them.