The issue nobody wants to address

I have a solution to this problem. 4-man dungeons with higher dps checks. Not like raiding tipe of course not, but at least something bit more harder like The Vault.

A dungeon were can be easly clear with a decent párty, were "everyone will need to pull their own weight" in orther to beat the check. That will make a perfect wall from the ones who wanna improve and the ones who dont want to.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

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I share your opinion. Let me quote myself from the other thread:

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Originally Posted by Archaell

I am starting to think that we need an encounter that whould serve as a wake-up call. Bismark isn't good enough.

We need 4man trial, where healer and tank are locked in their own fight, while each of the dps has to finish dps check on their own target alone otherwise whole party wipes. Set the bar to average expected dps. We will see how many nerf threads will appear.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

I share your opinion. Let me quote myself from the other thread:

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Still this would get nerfed. People would cry that the bar was set unreasonably high. It's not until people are faced with what their actual numbers are, and that their bar is unreasonably low that you would see a change.

Edit: Not that I wouldn't enjoy this mechanic and others like it. I just think it may be a waste if it will just get nerfed with the way the community is now. I think adding it after a parser is the way to go.

Unlike the original person you quoted though, I'm not for creating walls to prevent people from progressing. I'm hugely in favor of creating challanging content that pushes players to get better though, so that the game itself can progress and get more challanging.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Still this would get nerfed. People would cry that the bar was set unreasonably high. It's not until people are faced with what their actual numbers are, and that their bar is unreasonably low that you would see a change.

Edit: Not that I wouldn't enjoy this mechanic and others like it. I just think it may be a waste if it will just get nerfed with the way the community is now. I think adding it after a parser is the way to go.

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Maybe add it as a 3rd "expert" dungeon with lets say double the esoteric gain with a much (or decent) dps check, doesnt have to be somethig where dps are left to fend for themselves but still something where people need to pull their weight. It doesnt even need to be part of a roulette and actually i'd prefer it not to be but maybe people will realize hey if I improve I can cap my eso faster.

Another idea I had was maybe a bonus for the highest dps in the group, I realize this would be unfair to healers and to an extent tanks (but not in my case, shameless brag but I tend to be the highest dps as an overgeared tank most of the time in exp dungeons) but for the sake of everyone, I guess, it'd encourage faster runs and everyone would benefit directly or indirectly from dps actually trying to perform rather than "netflix and chilling" while they run a dungeon

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Originally Posted by Archaell

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Wouldn't mind something like the Infernal Council in swtor. Was basically 8 minibosses, one for each person. 2 for heals that did high damage but had low health, 2 for tanks that had a bit more health but less damage, and 4 for dps that had the most health and least damage. They were basically each a soft-enrage solo fight designed for your role.

It was right before the last boss at the time and made a nice solo-competency check.

Would need some changes to work for ffxiv though. Positionals would be weird, as well as tuning a dps check so that a brd/mch could do it while still being challenging for the others. Something more like Maat might work better.

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Originally Posted by dank1

Maybe add it as a 3rd "expert" dungeon with lets say double the esoteric gain with a much (or decent) dps check, doesnt have to be somethig where dps are left to fend for themselves but still something where people need to pull their weight. It doesnt even need to be part of a roulette and actually i'd prefer it not to be but maybe people will realize hey if I improve I can cap my eso faster.

Another idea I had was maybe a bonus for the highest dps in the group...

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I like the ideas. However, you would probably see a lot of the underperforming dps just joining the hard dungeons, and a lot of the DF runs becoming failures, thus negating the bonus. I think until your inital problem is at least partially solved, the community can't handle these types of ideas. The only way to do your idea reasonably would be to have a dps check before entering the dungeon, or use PF. Funny thought, would DPS then become the adventurer in need for that dungeon...

As far as bonus Tomes, I've had a few thoughts on that lately, as far as the AIN bonus applies that is. On how to make it relevant. And one thing I kept coming up with is that if the bonus is too much, AINs cap out too quick, in effect making the problem worse the closer to reset. So the next thought I had was, instead of making the bonus bigger, you just make it so the bonus counts above the cap. Hell, with that you could even make the bonus smaller, and it would probably work better. You probably could even do no bonus, and just have a cap extention added.

I just was meaning a normal dungeon with a dps check that could only be cleared if everyone does their job, no carries, nothing. This will encourages playes with low dps to become better, and the ones who dont wanna be better, the ones that say " I play as i like", will stay behind.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Still this would get nerfed. People would cry that the bar was set unreasonably high. It's not until people are faced with what their actual numbers are, and that their bar is unreasonably low that you would see a change.

Edit: Not that I wouldn't enjoy this mechanic and others like it. I just think it may be a waste if it will just get nerfed with the way the community is now. I think adding it after a parser is the way to go.

Unlike the original person you quoted though, I'm not for creating walls to prevent people from progressing. I'm hugely in favor of creating challanging content that pushes players to get better though, so that the game itself can progress and get more challanging.

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While it'd be nice if that were the case, I sincerely believe you (and others) actually think your peers have a reasonable sense of accountability and responsibility at all times (or at least the times you'd want them to). Them coming face to face with their numbers does next to nothing for the people you find problematic. It's just how they are. The folks that want to improve already would without it being that way sooner than later.

I'd personally prefer they just introduce a difficult tier of content that does force such mechanics upon EVERYONE. DPS needing to kill mobs before they die, tanks need to survive until help comes (this means kiting if need and using proper cooldowns for tank killer mechanics), healers need to heal themselves (or NPC targets) and learn to use their CC/snare abilities until help comes. Basically, some 4-man instances that is aimed for pre-made groups initially that breaks off into a very short solo mechanic. Let the bads be bad, there's no stopping that. Just introduce higher end content that appeases those who want content to force people to be better in situations otherwise seen as faceroll (like 4-man). Force this accountability upon them if they want to complete it.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

I share your opinion. Let me quote myself from the other thread:

"I am starting to think that we need an encounter that whould serve as a wake-up call. Bismark isn't good enough.

We need 4man trial, where healer and tank are locked in their own fight, while each of the dps has to finish dps check on their own target alone otherwise whole party wipes. Set the bar to average expected dps. We will see how many nerf threads will appear."

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That idea has actually been recently used in WoW, in the form of proving grounds. Basically it's an encounter where each of the 3 roles has a task to fulfill or they don't pass. Dps kill waves of enemies that don't hit back. Healers heal npc's who fight waves of enemies. Tanks fight waves of hard-hitting enemies while an npc heals them. Everyone has a timer. The only difference to your suggestion was that it's not a group dungeon, but a solo one. Why make other people wait around for that one person, after all. Proving grounds gates the WoW equivalent to DF expert dungeons, and to this day after a year the gating was introduced you can still read occasional complaints about how it's too hard.

Not going to lie. A version of PG would be amazing to have in this game. Not for the DF gating though, I don't care for that. But to test yourself by pushing up the difficulty of the encounter to earn achievements or items. For me, getting the highest dps achievement was one of the most memorable things of the latest WoW expansion.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

That idea has actually been recently used in WoW, in the form of proving grounds. Basically it's an encounter where each of the 3 roles has a task to fulfill or they don't pass. Dps kill waves of enemies that don't hit back. Healers heal npc's who fight waves of enemies. Tanks fight waves of hard-hitting enemies while an npc heals them. Everyone has a timer. The only difference to your suggestion was that it's not a group dungeon, but a solo one. Why make other people wait around for that one person, after all. Proving grounds gates the WoW equivalent to DF expert dungeons, and to this day after a year the gating was introduced you can still read occasional complaints about how it's too hard.

Not going to lie. A version of PG would be amazing to have in this game. Not for the DF gating though, I don't care for that. But to test yourself by pushing up the difficulty of the encounter to earn achievements or items. For me, getting the highest dps achievement was one of the most memorable things of the latest WoW expansion.

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It's on its way.