The arrogance of some people

Well. This is a lot of pages on a topic that has really been thoroughly discussed ceaselessly. To say the horse is dead would be understating it, as it's now practically compost.

I don't believe that any healer should be loudly called out for not DPSing (unless it's a particularly exceptional and egregious case of laziness), especially when some are far less comfortable than others at timing their Cleric Stances. I do try however, to encourage less experienced healers to slowly practise weaving in DPS abilities and spells during the plentiful moments of downtime when flat out healing simply isn't required. I frame it as part of developing one's situational awareness skills as part of the healer role. It isn't simply about staring at the party health boxes and reacting accordingly, but also about examining an unfolding situation at hand, being able to roughly mentally assess the likelihood of further damage coming out, and where able, judicially use spells like Holy also to pro-actively provide necessary breathing space.

I won't begrudge anyone who after a while still isn't comfortable with stance dancing. Latency can certainly make it a daunting and sometimes fatal experience. I have witnessed it myself, much to the chagrin of more impatient Duty Finder party members. However, I will continue to subscribe to the idea that a healer should aspire to always to be casting something when they are able to. Even if Cleric Stance is off and the potency of offensive spells is absolute crap, I will always respect that healer a lot more than a healer who remains devoted to bouncing around for much of their downtime while everyone else is headbutting the enemy mobs. It separates a healer who tries versus a healer who simply doesn't give a rat's arse.

A healer who willfully chooses to only do the bare minimum required while twiddling thumbs for half the time...I'm not going to applaud you any more than I would applaud a waiter for bringing my meal to me without dropping it all on my lap. Just turning up to work does not entail the employee of the month award.

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Originally Posted by Wizarus

You can kick a BLM spamming Scathe and not fear any consequence for it, but not a Healer who doesn't DPS, and we both already know the reason why, so I don't know why you brought this up.

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You can also kick a healer for not dpsing if you wish to do so.

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Originally Posted by Wizarus

You can kick a BLM spamming Scathe and not fear any consequence for it, but not a Healer who doesn't DPS, and we both already know the reason why, so I don't know why you brought this up.

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Why can't you kick a healer who doesn't DPS, and why can you kick a BLM who spams scathe? Is this like a quote from the Dev team or something? I've never seen anything to suggest either are true or false.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

My argument is that if someone is fulfilling their role as needed in the game, then extra actions they take on are personal choice and it's unreasonable to try to make it a requirement or insult them if they do not feel comfortable taking on those actions. There's also the double standard that a healer is required to fulfill other roles, but tank and dps are not required to fulfill other roles. Yes, healer dps makes a run faster. Yes, it is nice when it's something a healer feels comfortable doing. No, I'm not going to call them lazy or accuse them of being carried if they are not comfortable taking on those actions. That creates a toxic community and does nothing to foster party goodwill.

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But this is just a faulty argument. We are not talking about not fulfilling a role, we are talking about doing everything you can to help the team achieve its goal.

In a sense, you could say that a Tank using a Cooldown such as Sentinel is doing the healers job, as it's shielding away the damage (and shielding is a tool used by all the healers through adlo, stoneskin, protect etc.) In this scenario, are you against expecting a tank to use a cooldown, because he is then doing someone elses job? What about a BLM using Manaward/Manawall?

As for being comfortable, I respect that a healer may not be comfortable DPSing. However, a great majority are not doing it, not because they are not comfortable, but because it's either "not my job" or they are feeling lazy.

I do not accuse a healer of being carried, I simply call them bad. It's incredibly easy to DPS in all HW dungeons as a healer. I've been doing it since I was i145 in Fractals. If one doesn't do it in fractals at 210, they are either bad or lazy.

you can vote kick a healer that does damage, a tank that dps, a dps that dps, a healer that heals, a tank that heals, a dps that tanks, but in the end, the other 2 will problably don't... so... Let's close this topic

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Originally Posted by Wizarus

They don't "need" to do anything else if they are fulfilling their obligation as a healer. You can not like it all you want but Yoshi confirmed this already, so it can't be considered carrying if they don't want to DPS as well as heal.

It's completely unfair to force Healers do manage double the hotbars DPS use to do half of the damage they do. I do it, but no one should "have" to do that outside of a raid enviroment, where Healer DPS is taken into consideration when making the raid.

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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUDUjb8UEAAW2YU.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUDVyaBUAAA_BB1.jpg

I feel the problem is people embracing the trinity far more than it exist.

People need to understand the trinity is fading. It's still obviously present - but was not working in its old form. So they add the ability to deal damage to them. 'Old trinity' is gone. It's dead. Damage Tank, Damage Dealer, Damage Healer.

Get over it.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Why can't you kick a healer who doesn't DPS, and why can you kick a BLM who spams scathe? Is this like a quote from the Dev team or something? I've never seen anything to suggest either are true or false.

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Cause it most likely be under griefing. A dps (say the blm) that just spams one move like "i'm a ice mage" is not really helping the party and SE would see the kick as ok cause that dps would be griefing the other players. But kicking a healer cause they don't dps would be griefing the healer, cause even though healer has dps abilities it parts of the player base that think that healer is bad if they don't dps which SE won't take that side and that and will take the side of the healer unless that healer is not healing then it the other way around like the dps spamming one move.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Cause it most likely be under griefing. A dps (say the blm) that just spams one move like "i'm a ice mage" is not really helping the party and SE would see the kick as ok cause that dps would be griefing the other players. But kicking a healer cause they don't dps would be griefing the healer, cause even though healer has dps abilities it parts of the player base that think that healer is bad if they don't dps which SE won't take that side and that and will take the side of the healer unless that healer is not healing then it the other way around like the dps spamming one move.

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This is simply your interpretation. The only thing I have read is that you can kick someone for not playing to the play-style of the party. In this case, kicking both is acceptable.

I would really say that kicking a healer because they are not DPSing being called 'grieifing' is a very far stretch. Griefing is when you go out of your way to make another players time less enjoyable for your own entertainment. If I expect my healer to play well, and they aren't, then that really isn't grieifing. It's just different expectations.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

Of course you can.

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You cannot and you will be reported and dealt with, as you should be.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

This is simply your interpretation. The only thing I have read is that you can kick someone for not playing to the play-style of the party. In this case, kicking both is acceptable.

I would really say that kicking a healer because they are not DPSing being called 'grieifing' is a very far stretch. Griefing is when you go out of your way to make another players time less enjoyable for your own entertainment. If I expect my healer to play well, and they aren't, then that really isn't grieifing. It's just different expectations.

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This is why SE has no clear cut rules on anything, cause it might offend someones play style.