I have beaten every SMN on that leaderboard by far in A1S, with a shitty comp, and I can tell you having a high score doesn't mean anything about class balance. Why? Because my gear and my kill time are superior to anyone else trying right now. The results are pretty skewed right now, everyone's got a different scenario going. My point by that is, I wouldn't use that as proof of anything since it's a situation with a lot of variables, like gear, kill time, comp, who actually uses the class (I coulda gone BLM and have never beaten these people in the SMN category because I didn't play it).Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
The biggest flaw in pointing at that leaderboard and saying oh my, PLD DPS sure can't happen in a real fight in any way, is the top groups are running DRK anyway. DRK's in a better spot, this is undeniable, so your speed pushers, your groups trying for good DPS, are going to use DRK since it's better for the encounters in question. I am sure some of those 900+ WARs and DRKs could, if they so chose to gear and use PLD, get very close using the same tactics, but they're not going to for a while. It's a bit like looking at healer DPS and saying, the top AST is doing way less than SCH/WHM, when 99% of groups run SCH/WHM to begin with, though of course not that extreme.
You'll also get some people who do well who DGAF to post their numbers. I guarantee that is not the creme de la creme of PLD DPS.
PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke
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09-04-2015, 11:45 AMSleigh
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09-04-2015, 06:56 PMSapphidiaThe thing about paladin dps though is it's incredibly -easy-. DRK and WAR actually have quite a bit of thought in their dps rotation - managing when to fell cleave within berserk windows, the mana/wrath management, so many different options for Dark Arts, multiple DPS cooldowns on Warrior....Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleigh
... on Paladin you literally sit in Sword Oath as much as possible and just go Goring/Royal/Royal, keeping FoF, Circle and Spirits on cooldown, with a teeny bit of optimisation on the first FoF to ensure you get two Gorings and two Circle out of it. That's it.
Whilst I don't disagree with your point, Paladin DPS is very very easy to optimise in terms of the mechanical play of the Paladin. The tricky part is in actually having windows in which you can DO that rotation. The fact that we've seen no paladins approaching the values of WAR and DRK just shows more that it's very difficult to find the windows in a fight that allow that, more than saying the paladins on the leaderboard need to git gud.
It's why most Paladins arent actually crying for a Potency Increase, we're just wanting threat/quality of life boosts that let us sit in our DPS stance and actually do our dps rotation without losing huge amounts of DPS every time we need to worry about hate. -
09-05-2015, 12:38 AMSleighI don't believe the PLDs on that leaderboard who are doing significantly less than the DRK/WARs in A1 and A3 are necessarily playing sub-optimally or need to git gud, TBH. They are probably doing their rotation with 95-100% efficiency. It's all about comp and kill speed and gear, once you've settled on going Sword Oath as much as possible, and that's where I think the major difference is going to be. As I mentioned I believe, a lot of these good groups including mine who've beaten A1S and A3S in good clear times just aren't using PLD period because there's not much point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphidia
Don't get me wrong, I've experienced PLD Sword aggro, it's terrible and needs to get buffed pretty bad. I agree with most of the people at this point who want a little love on PLD, but it has to be in the right places; TP, Shield Swipe potency, and aggro. Just, posting leaderboard results as proof that PLD's potential is 70% of DRK and WAR is very flawed to me. -
09-05-2015, 07:13 AMAIexOh hey, that PLD is me!! I'm sure I can push over 800, but I don't get a slashing down because of our A1S tactic since we split our DPS 2-2 and our NIN stays on the WAR's to Aeolian spam. I spent a total of 2 GCD's on one stance dance the entire fight because I saw a messy situation where the healers needed help right before the tank buster, but even then it shouldn't have been a major dps loss. Riot > Sentinel > Goring + tankbuster starts cast > ShO > SwO > back to the good fightQuote:
Originally Posted by Adrasteia
That aside, me pushing a theory-800 still pales in comparison to top WARs and DRKs. I understand doing a lot less than a WAR, but I honestly don't feel like it's fair being 150 dps behind a DRK because of a shield that doesn't have amazing returns in savage + a 7 minute cd feasible maybe once (yeah yeah, sometimes twice) a fight + lacking the ability to reliably lower raid magic damage (don't give me that "divine veil" arguement, Cascade in A3S is every 70 or so seconds and dv is on a 150 cd vs Delirium + a good chance to proc reprisal with a well timed dark dance).
Also, I don't feel like im "creme de la creme", but I only spent 1 GCD (that didn't even break my combo luckily, see above) that in shield oath. Potted twice and put my FoF's behind goring. Outside of having getting the NIN to dancing edge for me (so that he gets a dps loss instead lol?), I don't see how I can push that number much further (aside from gear obviously). I definitely agree with adjustments to TP / Shield Swipe / Aggro, but potency+offensive adjustments do need to be made too. Getting an extra 50 potency auto attack that doesn't even affect my weaponskills does not even slightly compare to WAR's x1.05 deliverance + x1.20 maim and DRK's x1.15 darkside modifiers that apply to all their weapon skills AND auto attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleigh
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09-05-2015, 09:13 AMSleighWell, you're admitting you could have a better parse if the NIN was on you, regardless of if you feel it's the right decision or not; guarantee any DRK or WAR at the top had a NIN on them. Speaking of that, you should probably have the NIN on your Oppressor IMO, the NIN loses a little DPS but if you're in Sword Oath, your active 80+ DPS gain while he's applying DE will be more than he loses by going away from WAR. That applies to DRK too.Quote:
Originally Posted by AIex
A1's a goofy fight. It's not even just about how many jumps you get, it's about how long you spend in a phase after jumps too. From a 6:50ish clear I'm guessing you had 2 jumps and a bit of time into your phase. Anyone getting 1 jump and getting a bit into their phase is going to destroy you no matter what if they play on point, because they don't have to stand around for literally 30s doing nothing. You'll push that number much further when you skip jump 2. You'll notice some of the top numbers are distinctly 5m or less, which is why they're so inflated compared to most of the parses on there.
At the end of the day, DRK is just plain better A1S, it's designed at its core to be a WAR WAR or WAR DRK. Arguably A3S, definitely A4S. More DPS from PLD won't fix that, but it will make future content rougher to balance if PLD's scoring DRK level damage in Shield Oath. -
09-05-2015, 09:36 AMXyphon
I've said this since 2.0, flash should never have been allowed to be cross classed as an AOE move.
In 1.0, the "aoe" part of flash was a trait you learned as you lvled up. Now, the trait you get is "added blindness". Which, also is really silly because it only works on trash (bosses either resist it *current titan*, or have such high accuracy its ineffective). To top it off "blindness" is only a -% to accuracy to the mob, and not a straight miss.
Flash in ff11 was a guaranteed chance that the mob would miss the next physical attack; though it was only single target. So in that case, it was both an enmity and a mitigation move.
Obviously now, there's very little reason for war/drk to use flash; unlike how it was used pre-heavensward. This is another example of stuff left over by the devs that hasn't been updated/flushed out yet.
I've seen tons of ideas going around about how to change pld, and most of them are probably better than what the dev team will come up with. I'm still baffled that pld being the supposed "highest mitigation tank" has the exact same physical/magical defense as the other two tanks.
I never was a fan of the shield system that was implemented, and found the variety of shield types to be extremely flawed. I also still find it hilarious that a pld is unable to hide behind their shield, to block ranged magic projectiles. Apparently the devs are scared that the shield would melt on contact. -
09-05-2015, 09:49 AMTadusAmen my friend, you are 100% correct. This post has around 540 replies, and 40k views, and yet not in the dev tracker. Its like our PLD suggestion are just going nowhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyphon
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09-05-2015, 10:00 AMMikedizzy
Each tank has to have it's own trade off and that is just the way it will be. You cannot have them all doing the same dps when their other skills are vastly different. I think once their is more gear people will go back to Pally for the defensive cooldowns that can make the fights much easier.
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09-05-2015, 10:38 AMGooner_iBluAirJGRThis is just what we needed—More fodder! This post needs to reach 600! LET THE BATTLE BEGIN ANEW!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikedizzy
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09-05-2015, 10:58 AMTadusa bard talking bout PLD please k. Only those who have been PLDs for a while can say what PLD needs or doesn't need. People who are PLD wouldn't be saying these stuff it they weren't true. I don't see any war saying anything bout WAR, why? because they are already good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikedizzy