How do we feel about tank damage right now?

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

Healers bring far too much utility to be matching and even exceeding tanks in damage contribution, who do practically nothing BUT deal damage. It's extremely unsatisfying to manage an actual dps rotation only to have a healer deal more damage than you.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...=Any&bracket=2

Dark Knight is literally rock bottom in raid dps, which is ridiculous. There is a reason other games don't have tanks dealing less damage than healers. It's not at all balanced and this will hurt the game longterm.

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If you change it to "max" you could see how big 100% pure dps healer has over 100% dps tank this is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Because there is one big difference between pressing 3 buttons all the time and 10-13 buttons.
Also it is harder to be melee than ranged you cant just stick to the target in melee range for the entire raid and forget about aoes, even tanks cannot do that, casters have it easier, they dont have to line up their rotation with the mechanic like healers who just spam same spells without second thought.
And still healers are able to dish out more damage than tanks for some reason if they 100% on pure dps.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

It's more complex to maximize damage GCDs as a healer than as a tank.

Healers have no real way to deal with movement.

Healers by default rarely get to be "100% pure dps".

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Kabooa said it very well. Tanks do not have to choose whether they should spend GCDs on abilities that do no damage, so tanks have an easier time of it. Saying healers only have 3 buttons is ignoring the vast majority of their kits, and important decisions that have to be made.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

If you change it to "max" you could see how big 100% pure dps healer has over 100% dps tank this is ridiculous.

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No, it's not. With mitigation and damage stances being removed, tanks get to DPS without making sacrifices (technically there's the odd ability like Clemency, but raid tanks tend to refuse to use those anyways), while also having great utility in that they don't really have cast times (and the exception, Paladin, casts quickly) and have mobility, ie gap closers. Healers have to sacrifice to do their DPS, deal with cast times, and do not get any mobility assists.

This is why, the vast majority of the time, healers don't actually outdamage tanks. Looking at parses specifically setup where one healer is solo healing is not an accurate representation.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

This ^^^ plus remember, healers DPS 'rotations' are even worse than Tank rotations. Sorry, but I should not see a healer be down my neck when I am having nearly 100% uptime on a boss as a Tank.

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Statements like this are exactly why SE doesn't want players using a parser. You think that just because you are a tank you are entitled to higher dps than a healer in every single case including extreme fringe occurrences which is the only time a healer should out DPS a tank.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Kabooa said it very well. Tanks do not have to choose whether they should spend GCDs on abilities that do no damage, so tanks have an easier time of it. Saying healers only have 3 buttons is ignoring the vast majority of their kits, and important decisions that have to be made.

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so basically, you are saying healers should be able to spend less time hitting the boss than a tank and still do equal to or more damage than a tank, sounds like BS to me.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

so basically, you are saying healers should be able to spend less time hitting the boss than a tank and still do equal to or more damage than a tank, sounds like BS to me.

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No, he's saying for the two to be remotely competitive, it may be beneficial for a healer to have a slight lead over a tank in a perfect 100% uptime situation, given how much of their uptime will be wasted.

Apart from perhaps the recently overbuffed AST, tank-crushing healer parses involve virtually no healing; that's the only reason they're so ahead in any individual top-10 parse.

You'd be much better off looking at combined tank damage vs. combined healer damage, where you can more clearly see that the imbalance is nearer to some 200 dps in a perfectly healing-GCD-trimmed fight. That's enough for me to say tanks should probably have a bit more damage, but only a bit.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

No, he's saying for the two to be remotely competitive, it may be beneficial for a healer to have a slight lead over a tank in a perfect 100% uptime situation, given how much of their uptime will be wasted.

Apart from perhaps the recently overbuffed AST, tank-crushing healer parses involve virtually no healing; that's the only reason they're so ahead in any individual top-10 parse.

You'd be much better off looking at combined tank damage vs. combined healer damage, where you can more clearly see that the imbalance is nearer to some 200 dps in a perfectly healing-GCD-trimmed fight. That's enough for me to say tanks should probably have a bit more damage, but only a bit.

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Personally I think healers are too close to tanks in DPS, especially with all the oGCD options they have that limit their need for GCD heals, which narrows the gap quite a lot, but personally, I'm so used to the ratio from previous expansions, I genuinely believe tanks should be further ahead, 1, as stated, the trend that has always been there, 2, subjective but nonetheless, a lot of tanks will agree, complexity in rotation, and thirdly as mentioned more uptime in most cases.

While yes healer dps beating out tank dps is at an extreme scale, doesn't make it feel better that they have a capacity to deal more damage than tanks, which I do acknowledge is subjective thinking in most of my points.

I've never really looked at combine tank damage much admittedly, only on occasion, mostly because it doesn't as accurately show your personal contribution, but as you state it does show the imbalance more.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Statements like this are exactly why SE doesn't want players using a parser. You think that just because you are a tank you are entitled to higher dps than a healer in every single case including extreme fringe occurrences which is the only time a healer should out DPS a tank.

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Yes, because 95% of the time or more I am DPSing, healers can't DPS all the time they just can't they have their role responsiblilities that override thier offense. Tanks we use OGCDs so we can weave those and not lose offensive GCDs all the time while healers can't necessarily do it all the time. Its simple logic.

Idk how tanks weaving defensives is different from a whm using no gcd healing and pretty much having 100% uptime. If two healers can plan all their healing and have a perfect group, I don't see why healers cant out dps tanks.
I can agree however that healing has become easier to do, right now it's probably the easiest role (except astro) in the game thanks to all the of offensive spells taken away from us. I would love if SE gave us a more complicated rotation.

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Originally Posted by Acece

Idk how tanks weaving defensives is different from a whm using no gcd healing and pretty much having 100% uptime. If two healers can plan all their healing and have a perfect group, I don't see why healers cant out dps tanks.
I can agree however that healing has become easier to do, right now it's probably the easiest role (except astro) in the game thanks to all the of offensive spells taken away from us. I would love if SE gave us a more complicated rotation.

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Because you cant do that in every fight. Simple as that. Plus, if tanks did less damage than healers... we would just be 100% reliant on building hate off of our stance instead of you know... dealing damage to make them a threat.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

While yes healer dps beating out tank dps is at an extreme scale, doesn't make it feel better that they have a capacity to deal more damage than tanks, which I do acknowledge is subjective thinking in most of my points.

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I'd just advise that you consider that while healers only have as much healing uptime without cost to their damage dealing as they have oGCDs, whereas tanks have 100% uptime on an already hefty mitigation percentile (some third of all damage just off Ronkan gear's Defense stat, and another 20% off traits for a total of some 46% mitigation--given negatively-effective multiplicity--at all times).

Whereas a healer provides no indirect contribution (healing) without cost to direct contribution (damage) outside of oGCDs, a tank provides both over half its indirect contribution and all of its direct contribution at all times, to the point that if you were to directly convert damage absorbed via mitigation into the healing it's worth, a tank is already doing as much single-target "healing" as any healer, but at no contribution cost.