AOE Toggle Needs to GO

im gonna just say that everyone should stop waisting their time on this stupid idea of an issue. there is no reason to change it because a handful of people cant click an extra button or set a macro. and to try to convince them is dumb, just leave this thread and get on to actual issues that could improve the game to be fixed. end of discussion

People against AOE toggle seem to have many problems with their argument......

lazzy?
ok so hitting an extra button is lazy?

costs the same.
yes right now it costs the same MP and gives the same hate and power, but this is what SE should have changed instead of removing AOE toggle.

keep having to press the button.
no you dont, you only have to press the toggle button when you want to switch from on/off if you want to cast 10 single target spells in a row, then there is no need to touch the button, same with AOE.

It would have made more sense if SE had changed the power/hate/MP values of the spells if used with AOE toggle on, but instead they listen to the crazy people who have no clue what in the world they are talking about, and remove it completely.

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

Not hypocritical at all because it promotes laziness on both sides. Having to confirm/toggle at every spell creates redundancy and frustration. You look for the most efficient route and minimal amount of button presses, which is to just keep the AoE on and button mash. This contributes to laziness and lack of decision making. And why shouldn't you play this way if there is no enmity/MP penalty?

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Except you don't have to hit it every time you cast a spell, only every time you want to turn AoE on or off which makes you look even lazier. You don't want to occasionally hit a button to toggle AoE. Is that not lazy?

A good player won't AoE everything anyway, they will do so where there is need.

Also as has been said over and over again the issue of MP cost/hate/potency has nothing to do with the actual toggle and could be tweaked without the removal of the toggle. This thread was specifically asking for the removal of toggle alone, not for MP cost/hate/potency mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Tsuga

False, the only FF that had -aga spells as exclusively AoE was XI. In the rest of the FFs that these suffixes were present -a and -aga were tiers, much like II, III, etc. are. The only exception is Tactics, which still didn't limit II and III tiers to single target. Fact.

You're bringing up Hate/MP consequences to AoE, which could be added to the current system while retaining toggle, and is pretty much off topic. Nobody is arguing against balancing hate/MP cost/damage spread, etc. Anyway, having -aga spells would be the same as what we currently have, only more limiting to our options as mages.

AoE Toggle is a unique feature of this game, and a streamlined way MECHANICALLY to toggle AoE.

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"Ending with either a number or a -ga" was related to BOTH Single AND AoE Spells...
This doesn't change the fact that spells always were split between single target and group target spells in all FFs. With XIV they tried it with an AoE toggle thats usable for ALL spells. Sorry...this is not gonna work...there will NEVER be balance on spells if ALL spells can either be cast single, or AoE, whenever you feel like it. Plus having a set spell for Single and AoE targets will introduce more tactic to the game as well once the battle system is fixed. Imagine having a group of enemies charging at you...now you can either Sleep one(SleepI/II), Sleep all(SleepgaI/II), Paralyze one, Slow one etc or just try to fight them all together. This ADDS to the actual combat involvement if spells are strictly split between single and AoE, cause then you actually have to THINK and decide on a case by case basis what spell you're gonna use instead of just "oh, lots of enemies*click AoE toggle on*, "oh, single enemy*click AoE toggle off*...problem solved...

AoE toggle is nothing unique, adds NOTHING to combat, it just limits spells and mages in all possible ways you can imagine plus it causes balance issues that can't be just fixed by adjusting the spell, cause adjusting the spell will affect Single and AoE version of it...

SEs choice to get rid of the AoE toggle is actually a GOOD thing for all mages. That way playing a mage class actually involves thinking and making decisions(right AND wrong ones), instead of just AoE on/off, spam spells...where wrong decisions are not possible...

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

Not hypocritical at all because it promotes laziness on both sides. Having to confirm/toggle at every spell creates redundancy and frustration. You look for the most efficient route and minimal amount of button presses, which is to just keep the AoE on and button mash. This contributes to laziness and lack of decision making. And why shouldn't you play this way if there is no enmity/MP penalty?

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You don't need to confirm the toogle with every spell. Only when you turn aoe on or off (with the key Z). What you need to confirm with every spell is your sub target (with the key Return), what you still need without the toogle.

Double Post, but this needs to be said in a different post, or it would get overlooked prolly.

WHY are people so ignorant to think tthey will have TWENTY spells of the same kind(ranging from 1-10 for both Single and AoE)

Do you guys actually THINK before making that argument? So...if you got...

Cure I
Cure II
Cure II
Cure IV
Cure V

Curaga I
Curaga II
Curaga III
Curaga IV
Curaga V

Are you really that stupid to think having AAALLLLLLL of those spells is a necessity? You will learn those spells at different rank ranges to accomodate the amount of healing needed in that rank range. If you're R50 and only heal for endgame, its gonna be most likely the case that you will have the 2 highest Tiers of those spells on your bar ONLY and nothing else.

The only reason I WANT AoE toggle to go away is cause it will force people to actually MAKE DECISIONS! Balancing MP use/hate/dmg blah blah around one and the same spell for either Single or AoE is just unneccesarry BS. Using Thunder IV on a mob, or Thundaga IV on a group actually forces you to make a decision. ITS EITHER OR! And the fact that the amount of spells you can have actively on your bar might be more limited due to the larger amount of spells(Single and AoE Versions) even FURTHER ADDS to that decisions. I don't know what BS people are making up right now, but you can literally use 80% of ALL GOOD SPELLS from BOTH CON/THM on one R50 Mage class right now...so what's the point in that?

You are all talking of uniqueness and Bullshit, but at the same time the people supporting the AoE toggle destroy the uniqueness of both CON and THM with it. Right now EVERYONE chooses THM>CON...and why? Cause his Conal AoE is like ten times superior to CONs Circular AoE who seems to hit a 3 feet radius...

Well what if they change it to where CON ONLY has AoE cure spells(plus Singles), while THM has ONLY Single Heal Spells only(but due to the Regen effect they are more effective for longer battles)

Getting rid of the AoE toggle gives SE the possibility of actually balancing THM and CON as to where they are both gonna be unique in a way you won't take one over the other if they are both needed to get the most out of it.

PS: People who claim CON is still good and THM doesn't pound it into the ground have no clue what they are talking about. All mages who got both CON and THM to 50 take THM over CON without even thinking about CON for a second...

But hey...just keep going with AoE toggle...there are only 2 Mage classes anyway here, so why not just get rid of CON and give all his spells to THM as an addition...cause there obviously is no reason for CON to exist while THM can do everything CON does, just ten times better!

SE could do it like this:
Cure (Single) - learned with Rank 8
Cura (AOE) - learned with Rank 30
Curaga (Single) - learned with Rank 50
Curaja (AOE) - learned with Rank 75 (not implemented)

Because in the FF games Cura is Cure 2, Curaga is Cure 3 and Curaja is Cure 4 ^^

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

"Ending with either a number or a -ga" was related to BOTH Single AND AoE Spells...
This doesn't change the fact that spells always were split between single target and group target spells in all FFs.

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Go and play all the FF games before FF X

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

WHY are people so ignorant to think tthey will have TWENTY spells of the same kind(ranging from 1-10 for both Single and AoE)

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They use 20 spells (10 Single, 10 AoE) as an exaggerative point, even with only Thunder IV and Thundaga IV your spells still cost more in terms of space on the hot bar because you actually need to consume 2 slots. If we don't get an improved action bar, you're going to have less option for a diverse character build.

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

The only reason I WANT AoE toggle to go away is cause it will force people to actually MAKE DECISIONS! Balancing MP use/hate/dmg blah blah around one and the same spell for either Single or AoE is just unneccesarry BS.

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Again, this could be done leaving the AoE toggle in place and just updating it from a simple "green button" to one that shows you casting Cure vs. Cura results in: different MP cost, different enmity generation, different cool down time, etc. Removing AoE toggle does not directly adjust the MP cost, hate, and damage issues. These issues have to be addressed after the toggle button is removed--and could just as easily be addressed leaving a toggle functionality in place.

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

Using Thunder IV on a mob, or Thundaga IV on a group actually forces you to make a decision. ITS EITHER OR! And the fact that the amount of spells you can have actively on your bar might be more limited due to the larger amount of spells(Single and AoE Versions) even FURTHER ADDS to that decisions.

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The toggle button also forces you to make a decision. Its still "either or"--you just only have one action you have to click and then you make the decision rather than the decision being made for you automatically based on which action you click. There is no difference in the actual functionality of a toggle switch vs. two separate actions on the hot bar, only one (toggle being left in place) allows for a more efficient use of your hot bar.

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

Well what if they change it to where CON ONLY has AoE cure spells(plus Singles), while THM has ONLY Single Heal Spells only(but due to the Regen effect they are more effective for longer battles)

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Again this can still be done with the toggle intact. It requires some changes to the data objects and who can use what as AoE--but Disciples of War already have a carte blanche "no AoE" flag set on them. This flag could be shifted to a matrix that specifies on a per-class-per-spell basis who can use AoE and who can't.

The arguments for removing AoE toggle could still be addressed while keeping the feature. Its a usability issue as it is right now (1.17c), not a game mechanic issue. This, of course, seems to be changing along with battle and class modifications that are occurring this summer beginning with patch 1.18; so until 1.18 comes out we won't know whether the removal of the toggle was a good decision or not.

@Bayohne (or any other Communit Rep): I asked earlier in a post in the 40's--but could we get some explicit examples on how this feature change is going to affect us with damage, buff, debuff, and curative magic some time? I think it would help to clarify the situation and remove speculation and apprehension regarding this change!

I'm one of the few that are happy they are doing this. I find it boring to spam AoE cure all the time. It just makes mages dulla and boring, and as of now, there really isn't a side effect to abusing AoE aside from hate because you never run out of mp. Also makes it too easy when you can AoE heal every 2 seconds

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

I'm one of the few that are happy they are doing this. I find it boring to spam AoE cure all the time. It just makes mages dulla and boring, and as of now, there really isn't a side effect to abusing AoE aside from hate because you never run out of mp. Also makes it too easy when you can AoE heal every 2 seconds

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How is removing the toggle and making AoE spells and single-target spells separate actions even going to resolve this issue of "I find it boring to spam AoE cure all the time"? If I have an AoE cure I'm still going to favor that in a party situation over single. Its no different than leaving the toggle on.

The issue isn't AoE vs. Single Target its the fact that the application of AoE vs. Single Target has the same requirements and effects. That is what needs to be changed; and as I've said time-and-time again any changes to enmity, MP cost, cool down, etc. could be achieve while leaving the toggle in place. It may not be a trivial change, depending on what the code structure looks like, but it is possible.