What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Teraq

I mean, I don't disagree with all that at all. My happy wholesome AU is one where Hermes gets proper medical attention rather than Emet's non-solution of figuratively kicking him upstairs to get him out of a job that emotionally destroyed him, and he slowly recovers and opens up, ending up cooperating against the whole Meteion business (this is also an AU where people are aware of Meteion and what happened, because goddamn that didn't make sense).

But yeah my main beef is that the main reaction I've seen to him is that he's a poor little baby who's the only person with feelings and Ancients totally sucked and were a bunch of meanies.

...Okay so truth be told, I haven't interacted with the fandom outside of this very thread since like, mid December. I honestly just chose to filter out FFXIV social media then because the EW positivity seriously put a damper on my mood (oh no a feedback loop /echo chamber!). Maybe it's changed since then, but that particular reading of Hermes and Ancients really is not my jam.

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I really enjoy Hermes, but that response/read to him is very much (much like hating Zenos in a post-EW world) Objectively Wrong!

I understand, though. I mean, I was also honestly in a similar place with the Exarch in Shadowbringers. I liked the character! Couldn't get on board, at all, with fandom takes of him as soft and good and pure-hearted. That guy was cold and his character was most appealing to me in the moments when his being cold was allowed to shine a bit more brightly. I have not actually gone out of my way to look at Hermes fandom specifically, but it being full of, uh, not great takes seems very plausible.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I still find it weird that nobody seems to care that their souls aren't whole or that they have fragments of themselves running around on other shards.

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I will never understand, at the very least, our own character's complete disinterest in learning more about Azem. Imagine being told you're 9/14 of a god and just being like "Heh heh ok. Stone shiny. I put in pocket and then forget about it". But honestly, I shouldn't be that surprised as our character still sucks at using the Echo even after all this time. Even Zenos calls us out on it.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

I mean, I don't disagree with all that at all. My happy wholesome AU is one where Hermes gets proper medical attention rather than Emet's non-solution of figuratively kicking him upstairs to get him out of a job that emotionally destroyed him, and he slowly recovers and opens up, ending up cooperating against the whole Meteion business (this is also an AU where people are aware of Meteion and what happened, because goddamn that didn't make sense).

But yeah my main beef is that the main reaction I've seen to him is that he's a poor little baby who's the only person with feelings and Ancients totally sucked and were a bunch of meanies. We had a very particular person on this thread like 70 pages back, I still cringe thinking about their take.

...Okay so truth be told, I haven't interacted with the fandom outside of this very thread since like, mid December. I honestly just chose to filter out FFXIV social media then because the EW positivity seriously put a damper on my mood (oh no a feedback loop /echo chamber!). Maybe it's changed since then, but that particular reading of Hermes and Ancients really is not my jam.

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It's actually not that bad generally speaking - you do get the odd person who will insist on ignoring all the lore contradicting the supposed "point" of the story, that the ancients were unfeeling automata or that this was some glaring flaw in their society but by and large it's acknowledged that he was a raging hypocrite who even mistreated his own supposedly beloved creation. Likewise, with the Plenty positioned as the rationale for Venat's actions (alongside dynamis manipulation), it is also more broadly acknowledged that their downfall was not due to any inherent flaws of theirs so much as where that pursuit might lead them. There's still plenty of brick walls on places like reddit, who will insist on selectively reading the story and (massively) dropping context to keep their Ascian hate boner alive, but it's improved since SHB, in all honesty. I think the Q&A largely silenced a lot of the more ardent Ascian haters - at least those who grasped the implications of it.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I still find it weird that nobody seems to care that their souls aren't whole or that they have fragments of themselves running around on other shards.

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I don't get it, either.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

I associate "adventures" with having to check in with Momodi or the Levemete guy so they can tell me who needs a new chore completed. Hard to get hype for what gives me ARR 2.0 vibes but as so many have already said, we shall see.

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Same. I'm dreading a potential slow burning, world/story building 'arc' similar to ARR because I hated ARR. Combined with being disappointed with EW, I need something more.

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Currently watching my favorite streamer who has just started EW and I'm genuinely curious what he'll think by the end.

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Is it Preach? I'm curious what he's going to say. I've been occasionally checking in on Pyromancer. I don't like watching him, but as a lore guy (and Emet fan) I want to see what his reaction is to Elpis and Venat. The problem with streamers is they're paid to entertain and griping about the story isn't going to amass an audience, especially in this community. Having said that, Zepla's reactions during her playthrough were almost identical to mine. She was pissed off at the end of Elpis, cried when Emet & Hythlodaeus showed up in Ultima Thule, and commented about the writers not being done twisting the knife.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Is it Preach? I'm curious what he's going to say. I've been occasionally checking in on Pyromancer. I don't like watching him, but as a lore guy (and Emet fan) I want to see what his reaction is to Elpis and Venat. The problem with streamers is they're paid to entertain and griping about the story isn't going to amass an audience, especially in this community. Having said that, Zepla's reactions during her playthrough were almost identical to mine. She was pissed off at the end of Elpis, cried when Emet & Hythlodaeus showed up in Ultima Thule, and commented about the writers not being done twisting the knife.

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It is! He's been my favorite of the streamers mostly because he hasn't been afraid to say that he doesn't like something when he doesn't like it. Plus he's pretty entertaining regardless of whether I agree with his take or not. I know now from watching him for a while that he is not a fan of what he feels are cheesy, contrived plot points and am just wanting to see how he'll feel about the idea of fighting an embodiment of despair and the power of friendship. You know he likes a dark story? He's just hyping himself up for what he feels will be dark and it's just...not. Venat will be a tossup. I know he loves Emet and will love Hythlodaeus but he is sort of stupid about any female character who has any kind of sass, so I think he'll let her pass. Not sure how he'll feel about Hermes either and feel like he's not going to like Meteion, either as a character or the last minute "Big Bad" but...we'll have to wait and see. Should be entertaining no matter what.

I'm not a Pyro fan but I may check in when he gets to that part of the game. So far his reactions have been as over-the-top as I expected so I'm not sure how he'll react to Elpis and co. To be fair, on my first playthrough I was totally hoodwinked as well and only gained clarity with time and lots of thought. Haven't seen Zepla's playthrough of that part, I'll put it on my queue and watch when I can.

Admittedly I have a hard time taking many streamers seriously because many seem to deliberately hold back their true opinions and/or play to what their audience expects of them. It's the problem with individuals who stand to make money from something. Very few even bother to engage with the official forum, either, which I find to be weird since it's a lot more civil than either Twitter or Reddit.

As it stands, I don't think it's very rewarding for anyone to even bother investing time being a lore streamer these days. It used to be the case where the story could be reasonably foreshadowed by plot threads seeded in previous expansions but now it seems the new direction is to just have something completely random and unexpected happen in order to 'subvert expectations'.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

In Hermes's case, I legitimately think the presented answer is "it's mostly him." Hermes is presented to us for the bulk of his screentime as Amon for a reason. He denies it for a long time, until the end where Amon does obviously speak as Hermes, and his Amon persona as a part of Hermes's story - but they are absolutely at core the same person, filled with bitterness and contempt at the society and people around them, and looking to the outside for an "answer" to his doubts he can shove in their faces.

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I agree with all of this, but I was still left with the impression that we were supposed to sympathize with him and that he wasn't any worse than any of the other Ascians/Ancients. I'm not able to look it up at the moment, but I got the same impression when Yoshi-P was comparing Hermes and Venat in the LL.

It would've helped had he been omitted from the credits walk and post credit art, but also the Ultima Thule scene were Meteion collapses into the Elpis flowers with the Hermes speech I was just like, WTF, am I supposed to feel bad for the two beings responsible for almost destroying the universe right now, seriously?!

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I agree with all of this, but I was still left with the impression that we were supposed to sympathize with him and that he wasn't any worse than any of the other Ascians/Ancients. I'm not able to look it up at the moment, but I got the same impression when Yoshi-P was comparing Hermes and Venat in the LL.

It would've helped had he been omitted from the credits walk and post credit art, but also the Ultima Thule scene were Meteion collapses into the Elpis flowers with the Hermes speech I was just like, WTF, am I supposed to feel bad for the two beings responsible for almost destroying the universe right now, seriously?!

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Have you replayed through MSQ? I helped a friend with Zodiark and then watched the subsequent scene with him and... the please-feel-bad-for-him! monologue was already awkward the first time through, but watching it again and recognizing the sad piano tune as the nighttime Elpis BGM just added an entirely new layer of cringe.

Zepla was pretty positive towards Hydaelyn and Venat after Elpis tho, as has been pretty much all the streamers and content creators I’ve seen.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

But yeah my main beef is that the main reaction I've seen to him is that he's a poor little baby who's the only person with feelings and Ancients totally sucked and were a bunch of meanies. We had a very particular person on this thread like 70 pages back, I still cringe thinking about their take.

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Ah, I see you also Twitter and no, it hasn't changed. The amount of art and fanfic I've seen on there depicting him as some uwu, gentle, misunderstood Romeo has been something else :rolleyes:.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

He's just hyping himself up for what he feels will be dark and it's just...not. Venat will be a tossup. I know he loves Emet and will love Hythlodaeus but he is sort of stupid about any female character who has any kind of sass, so I think he'll let her pass.

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He already said during his ShB playthrough that he would've been #TeamHydaelyn, so I'm not expecting much critique for her unless something in EW changes his mind. Plus, I think most of us who ended up not liking Venat actually did during Elpis, she was likeable until the end of it.

I am fully expecting him to comment on the fact that nothing bad happens to the protagonists (again). They haven't suffered any losses since HW and he already had a problem with it in SB. (Personally, I thought Gosetsu and Yotsuyu should've stayed dead after Doma Castle.)

I'm not a long time viewer, more so every now and then whenever he'd pop up in my feed for WoW related things, but I've been watching more since he's been playing FFXIV and have enjoyed his perspective.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

Ah, I see you also Twitter and no, it hasn't changed. The amount of art and fanfic I've seen on there depicting him as some uwu, gentle, misunderstood Romeo has been something else :rolleyes:.

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I have (largely lurked on) the Meteion network indeed (and actively posted on the main subreddit until EW, now I'm just subscribed to /r/ffxivdiscussion and the quintessential /r/TalesFromDF). And yes, it's the main reason why I have stopped browsing for Ascian/Ancient fanart. That just... reaaally did not jive with me.

tbh one of my first reactions to Hermes was "I feel like this is Batman's The Killing Joke but it's missing the point", i.e. ultimately the point of that story (along with Batman himself being kind of unhinged) is that while yes, the Joker has a tragic backstory, what he became afterwards is entirely on him, it isn't society's fault, and he doesn't succeed in driving Gordon insane because that isn't really how this works. And I really feel like EW did not do that, or at least, not plainly enough, as Brinne brought up re: the unabashedly positive treatment of Venat is indeed more egregious compared to how Fandaniel ends up. As a result, it kinda feels like Hermes lives in a society, bottom text

I always found the 'Team Hydaelyn' and 'Team Zodiark' thing to be pretty strange. Especially when it was conveniently made to be the case where Zodiark was little more than an empty husk by the end of things despite contributing more to the safety and preservation of Etheirys overall than Hydaelyn.

I also found it odd that many of the same posters who stated that they couldn't possibly support the Ascians due to the genocide that came with the Rejoinings now insist that genocide is fine, actually, so long as 'mommy' is the one partaking of it.

My respect goes to those who at least stood firmly by their red lines and backed away from Venat when it was revealed that not only was the Sundering deliberate, she's indirectly responsible for the Rejoinings as well.

I'm the sort of guy who just wants to indulge in a fun game first and foremost. I loathe this game's laughably preachy tone at times - especially with the increasingly childish approach to mature subject material. (Why are we sending kids to go and negotiate with grizzled soldiers and desperate civilians who have lost absolutely everything that they care about...?)

Yet if the game's going to take such an approach, then I'd at least like it to be consistent - but it never is, because the same things that the antagonists are criticised for are excused when the protagonists embrace them. That isn't 'grey morality'. It's just hypocrisy - and it isn't even called out as such most of the time.

On another note, I wonder what made the writers have the Watcher be a faceless construct-creation and not an actual Unsundered character. If the three ascians could escape through a little crack, this 'researcher friend' of Venat's who could have perhaps been a strong mage who was in the know about some things could have similarly escaped and then agreed to a long lonely 12k year vigil for the sake of the planet. Would've been interesting to see how a flesh-and-blood person would react to all of this and what their thoughts were, while being neutral/skewing toward Hydaelyn.

Don't think it would have gone against the 'muh themes' hard to have a not-FuSoYa hanging out on the moon, while also still throwing Ancient fans a little bone. His goals would shift from watching Zodiark, to watching over Etheirys now that the Sundered inherited it. Also I could teleport over, /hug him at any time, and go "Thank you for surviving everything".

Also, I stand by liking the loporrits even if there was a bit too much attention on them that could've gone elsewhere... like on Zodiark himself. I don't know how horrendous their EN voices were, but their JP ones were adorable.

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

Also, I stand by liking the loporrits even if there was a bit too much attention on them that could've gone elsewhere... like on Zodiark himself. I don't know how horrendous their EN voices were, but their JP ones were adorable.

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Nothingway ranks up there with the Ea lying flat by the pond, the Plentyperson choosing death and Shinryu-Zenos just arriving in Ultima Thule and having already had enough with Meteion drawing breath on the great scale of Endwalker character relatability.

Guess we'll just hang around until the world ends again then, whoop dee doo

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Zepla was pretty positive towards Hydaelyn and Venat after Elpis tho, as has been pretty much all the streamers and content creators I’ve seen.

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She changed her stance after the fact, yes. She doesn't tend to read chat when she's playing, so the reactions at the time were more authentic. As far as I know she only streams FFXIV, which has a community notorious for not accepting criticism, and she's been invited to interview Yoshi-P. She's not going to burn those bridges. Even still, she's continuously said she wants a happy "no more tears" ending for the Ancients.

I don't watch a lot of other streamers. I enjoyed Rich Campbell before he did an abrupt about face sometime in ShB because people in his audience were threatening to have his sponsorships removed on ethical grounds because he was pro-Ascian at the time. He was also invited to interview Yoshi-P. I tried watching some of his EW playthrough and it's just a gushy mess that doesn't sound authentic. I suspect that's going to be the case for anyone to whom FFXIV streaming is a significant source of revenue and even moreso if they have a history of being involved with SE, it's not in their professional best interests to be critical.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I agree with all of this, but I was still left with the impression that we were supposed to sympathize with him and that he wasn't any worse than any of the other Ascians/Ancients. I'm not able to look it up at the moment, but I got the same impression when Yoshi-P was comparing Hermes and Venat in the LL.

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In fairness to Yoshi-P, I thought he came down pretty firmly on "nope" when Hermes was being discussed as the "most human" of the Ancients in the voice actor roundtable from a while back.

As a true-blue Hermes fan, though, I have to admit I don't find his treatment any more egregious than the sympathy extended to other people like Yotsuyu or even Emet-Selch. My only problem with the montage was really more that Elidibus wasn't there--though he's continuing on through the patches, so even that has an explanation.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I enjoyed Rich Campbell before he did an abrupt about face sometime in ShB because people in his audience were threatening to have his sponsorships removed on ethical grounds because he was pro-Ascian at the time.

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Wait, wait. This is what happened? I stopped watching him pretty quickly because I just can't with his stalling and tangents, but I did remember him being a huge fan of the Ascians. I didn't know he'd been bullied about it in any kind of seriousness. Ah well.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I enjoyed Rich Campbell before he did an abrupt about face sometime in ShB because people in his audience were threatening to have his sponsorships removed on ethical grounds because he was pro-Ascian at the time.

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I, uh, what? I thought this sort of weird moral puritanism was a terminally-on-Twitter beast, not something I would associate with the Twitch crowd. Gross.

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Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

As a true-blue Hermes fan, though, I have to admit I don't find his treatment any more egregious than the sympathy extended to other people like Yotsuyu or even Emet-Selch. My only problem with the montage was really more that Elidibus wasn't there--though he's continuing on through the patches, so even that has an explanation.

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I wouldn't really liken him to Yotsuyu to be honest; Yotsuyu is more of an outright villain who revels in her sadism, and the sympathy largely comes during her amnesia, which is a situation that everyone (in and out of universe I think lol) was uncomfortable with because it added a degree of wrongness to punishing her. The fallout from that and resentment among the Doman is addressed in the role quest and given some closure, I felt. Unfortunately, Ancients right now aren't in the best position to discuss Hermes anymore.

(Speaking of Pandaemonium, I do hope this is indirectly addressed by Themis witnessing a bunch of purely man-made horrors and suffering, thinking "bullshit, you don't speak for all of us" and going on to save the entire planet and fight on to bring them all back for 12,000 years anyway. But still, this will only ever be indirect.)

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Originally Posted by Teraq

I, uh, what? I thought this sort of weird moral puritanism was a terminally-on-Twitter beast, not something I would associate with the Twitch crowd. Gross.

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Twitch has - like so many other sites - unfortunately been compromised. Both in terms of how it chooses to moderate and the sort of users that the platform allows to gather together and enforce narratives.

I wouldn't consider this site to be perfect but at least if there's death threats or coercion attempts made then the moderators at least have the decency to step in.

Why be concerned with what other "parts" of you are doing on other shards? It doesn't effect you, and you more than likely have far more tangible concerns. Why morn or feel sad for something you never had? Just like our WoL isn't Azem, so why should they be concerned with Azem? Azem is long dead and we are our own person.

Many people are fascinated by the lives of people who aren't them - such as celebrities and historical figures. There's also a lot of people who dig deep into their family tree to sate their curiosity. If we're to assume that adventurers are thirsty for adventure and knowledge then the aversion to finding out more about the past makes very little sense.

There's plenty of aspects of the story that I don't care about, though if they're fleshed out for those who enjoy them? Great. I just hope that the stuff I do care about is, in turn, fleshed out further as well.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Is it Preach? I'm curious what he's going to say. I've been occasionally checking in on Pyromancer. I don't like watching him, but as a lore guy (and Emet fan) I want to see what his reaction is to Elpis and Venat. The problem with streamers is they're paid to entertain and griping about the story isn't going to amass an audience, especially in this community. Having said that, Zepla's reactions during her playthrough were almost identical to mine. She was pissed off at the end of Elpis, cried when Emet & Hythlodaeus showed up in Ultima Thule, and commented about the writers not being done twisting the knife.

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Pyro was very vocal about how much he loathes the concept of time travel when it was brought up in ShB, so I am very curious to see how he receives the whole Elpis bit, particularly because none of the other people I've watched seemed to really bat an eye at how completely out of the blue it was.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Many people are fascinated by the lives of people who aren't them - such as celebrities and historical figures. There's also a lot of people who dig deep into their family tree to sate their curiosity. If we're to assume that adventurers are thirsty for adventure and knowledge then the aversion to finding out more about the past makes very little sense.

There's plenty of aspects of the story that I don't care about, though if they're fleshed out for those who enjoy them? Great. I just hope that the stuff I do care about is, in turn, fleshed out further as well.

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My question was from an in universe perspective. Furthermore, the ancient are supremely boring. What did they do besides the final days? That is literally their entire lore. A singular event in a pacifist race.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

My question was from an in universe perspective. Furthermore, the ancient are supremely boring. What did they do besides the final days? That is literally their entire lore. A singular event in a pacifist race.

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They did everything any other NPC in the games did, that's the point. People care about the Ancients in the same way they care about other characters, not because of their narrative use.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Pyro was very vocal about how much he loathes the concept of time travel when it was brought up in ShB, so I am very curious to see how he receives the whole Elpis bit, particularly because none of the other people I've watched seemed to really bat an eye at how completely out of the blue it was.

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Hmm, I wonder if he'll hate it or if he'll get swept away in the fanservice of the moment. He seems to love the Ancients so the whole Elpis experience might overpower his objections for a time. I also wasn't aware that he hated the time travel in ShB, so he just hated everything about the Crystal Tower/alternate timeline story?

He just bluntly stated as an aside that he really didn't like the concept in response to the bit about G'raha wondering why he even exists still now that the timeline he hailed from should've vanished, but brushed it off presumably because it didn't actually have much bearing on how things played out in Shadowbringers and was more just prior set-up for allowing its plot to occur in the first place...unlike how it was handled in Endwalker.

I'd assume his dislike probably stems from its usage in WoW where it was used as an excuse to create an entire expansion with no build-up, with an army from an alternate timeline just coming out of the blue to assail both warring factions and it being apparent from the get-go that timey-wimey nonsense was to blame. It felt very out of place in a setting that still had multiple antagonists at large and is generally agreed as the point where the story started going off the rails into absurdity.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

She changed her stance after the fact, yes. She doesn't tend to read chat when she's playing, so the reactions at the time were more authentic. As far as I know she only streams FFXIV, which has a community notorious for not accepting criticism, and she's been invited to interview Yoshi-P. She's not going to burn those bridges. Even still, she's continuously said she wants a happy "no more tears" ending for the Ancients.

I don't watch a lot of other streamers. I enjoyed Rich Campbell before he did an abrupt about face sometime in ShB because people in his audience were threatening to have his sponsorships removed on ethical grounds because he was pro-Ascian at the time. He was also invited to interview Yoshi-P. I tried watching some of his EW playthrough and it's just a gushy mess that doesn't sound authentic. I suspect that's going to be the case for anyone to whom FFXIV streaming is a significant source of revenue and even moreso if they have a history of being involved with SE, it's not in their professional best interests to be critical.

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I think it’s very much in the realm of confirmation bias to assume that these reactions were motivated by less honest reasons. Not to mention, if you think someone isn’t willing or able to be honest, why trust their opinions in any way? But eh, most streamers seemed to love the storyline on any case.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

It would honestly feel a bit anti-climactic to me if the situation in Ilsabard with the rogue Garlean legions still occupying the provinces ended up just blowing over peacefully.

We were originally meant to have an entire expansion dedicated to sorting out matters with Garlemald, and that could still reasonably happen except we'd be helping the legions who chose to stand on the side of the Populares curb the threat of the imperialists who still desire to rule the continent with an iron fist. Desperation could lead to them becoming an even bigger threat then the empire originally was if Black Rose was any indication.

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I knew it felt like a Garlean Themed expansion was sacrificed at one point, all that build up throughout the entirety of SB and ShB up until 5.3 and it is just one zone that is already ruined and feels more like side content. It felt so anti climatic, I was more excited for Garlemald then anything else this expansion and i was way more interested in exploring zones tied to it then I was Ultima Thule. Even worse I have not seen one piece of side content this expansion related to Garlemald. Now with everyone only thinking and talking about Merycydia, the New World and the other shards all i am here thinking is that we still have the entirety of Ilsabard shrouded in mist and mostly unexplored, and there is a lot of indication that it suffered the most damage from the combination of the civil war and final days and is not in the best of shape so you think that helping the people there would take precedence over going to Meracydia or the New World because Adventure.

It is seriously a concern of mine that most of Ilsabard and Orthard will be relegated to side content and not have many exploration zones as well as not being fleshed out that much but Meracydia and the New World and even other shards will get tones of new zones and characterization, when Ilsabrd and Orthard interest me the most since they are tied to my 2 characters backstory. I seriously hope that the lack of resolution for Garlemald and only having one zone after 4 years of continuous buildup and not getting any side content is a sign that the next expansion will be Ilsabard and deal with the aftermath of EW. Luckily there is a sign that it might be as Yoshi P. said that the story of the next expansion will be a conflict of Ideals and that for me seems to point more towards Ilsabards current state then Meracydia.

Continuing from my last post, as I have mentioned before in other posts I imagine that there is a large power vacuum in Ilsabard now now and tensions and conflicts between various nations, some of which were nations that gained there independence, some of which were formed by former legatus's like what Noah was trying to do, and some are completely new having formed out of the chaos. I also imagine that these nations have a lot of reasons to be warry of each other and even hostile towards one another as they fight for resources to rebuild and do not have any reason to join together like the Eorzean Alliance as there is no bigger threat to push them together.

This can allow them to do a more down to earth storyline and it can be a sort of Romance of the Three Kingdoms type storyline. We can have a human conflict that is morally grey and an actual conflict between multiple powers of similar strength and not another liberation from the Empire storyline that we have seen 4 times now. It should be noted I do not recall Yoshi P. saying he does not want to do another war story just that he doesn't want to do another liberation storyline.

Also there is a lot of potential for an Ilsabard expansion. Just imagine, the main hub city is Landis which is implied to be the Constantinople to Garlemald's Rome, so we can have a magiteck city for a hub that is not destroyed, it adds more variety and Final Fantasy Aesthetics.

Since it seems that Ilsabrd is inspired by Eastern and Northern Europe with Garlemald taking some queues from Russia just think about some of the other zones we can have. We can have a zone inspired by Germany, Austria, and Switzerland in terms of Aesthetics, maybe one that draws on some classic Studio Ghibli like landscape designs now that Ishgard is frozen. There is actually a precedence for such a nation or nation existing with the addition of the Dirndl's Attire, and the Bergsteiger's Attire from the SE store. Then we can have a zone inspired by more Norwegian cultures, imagine the fantasy aesthetics they could do with that, especially with the popularity of Skyrim and the New God of War duology, this aesthetic has received some popularity in recent years, We can also have a Romania inspired zone that has a lot of Gothic Architecture and lore, maybe even blending Garlean Architecture with more older local styles, and of course we can have more Mediterranean inspired regions like Werlyt. Of course it would be kind of boring if these nations were just complete 1 to 1 recreations of their real world counterpart so i would like to see maybe them doing what they did in Thravnir were it serves as an inspiration but they have a more unique spin that fits the world of Ethierys

There is a lot of potential both Storywise and Aesthetically for an Ilsabrad expansion and right now I am more interested in helping the people recover there then exploring Meracydia or the New World or Other Shards because Adventure.

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Originally Posted by Simple_Barghest

So did this thread reach the conclusion of "How dare the WoL fight against the Unsundered you big meanie Big Papa Emet was justified" yet?
Or was that already a thing?
I really don't want to read over several hundred pages and who knows how many posts. I already feel like my emotional and time investment in the story was basically a gigantic waste.

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Oh no, people aren't trying justify Emet's actions at all.

They mostly dislike how everyone in the story seems to ignore the implications that Venat/Hydaelyn was directly/indirectly responsible for a lot more harm then just the Sundering yet is painted in a far more positive light then her peers simply because her path was framed as being the only available option for the world's survival by necessity due to how all the time travel/causal loop nonsense functions.

A common take has been that it's perfectly justified for the Sundered to do everything possible in order to survive. On the other hand, the same can be said of the Unsundered - it's a reasonable expectation for the Ascians to do whatever is needed to ensure that their people aren't wiped out.

Shadowbringers took that approach and presented it all as an unfortunate but necessary clash of like wills. If Emet won, his people would be restored and the Sundered would be no more. On the other hand, with the Warrior of Light's victory it was the Ancients who were eliminated in their entirety. The problem, then is that it is Venat who put both sides in such a horrific position in the first place but all sorts of contrived plot devices are pulled out in order to try and awkwardly justify it instead of just straight up admitting that it was pretty abhorrent and selfish of her to do as much.

Worse yet, the Sundered didn't even pass her 'test' because at various points they required the aid of not only the Unsundered but various other powerful entities such as the dragons and Omega in order to succeed. The victory against Meteion wasn't entirely their own doing, thus 'Dynamis' comes across as little more than a sad excuse to try and pretend as if the Ancients 'deserved' to be wiped out because they couldn't wield it effectively. (Which has unpleasant implications - especially when Garleans are unable to wield Aether as well as the other races and led to their persecution and near extinction...)

'ate me time loops that have unfortunate implications for the WoL/Hydaelyn if you activate your brain.
'ate me memory wipe devices.
'ate me dynamis ex machina that is now being retroactively justified.
'ate me Garlemald just immediately being dumped offscreen, the towers just being resolved immediately, the body swap scene having no point other than a cool instance, and the whole first half feeling like it was stitched together from the remains of another expansion.
'ate me escort and stealth quests.
'ate me endless Scion speeches, filler that feels like it doesn't respect your time and is there so Yoshi can boast that it's the longest expansion by hours.
'ate me cheap emotional manipulation.
'ate me wet fart of a Final Days that only hits two regions in full and all the protags escape with nary a scratch.
'ate me fanservice that isn't really fanservice since we have to watch these people get screwed over and be told they were naughty and deserved it and mom knows best.
'ate me clumsy and forced themes.
Luv me Vrtra.
Luv me Hythlodaeus.
Luv me glory be soup.
Luv me Ra-La and John Globalcitizen.

Simple as.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

'ate me time loops that have unfortunate implications for the WoL/Hydaelyn if you activate your brain.
'ate me memory wipe devices.
'ate me dynamis ex machina that is now being retroactively justified.
'ate me Garlemald just immediately being dumped offscreen, the towers just being resolved immediately, the body swap scene having no point other than a cool instance, and the whole first half feeling like it was stitched together from the remains of another expansion.
'ate me escort and stealth quests.
'ate me endless Scion speeches, filler that feels like it doesn't respect your time and is there so Yoshi can boast that it's the longest expansion by hours.
'ate me cheap emotional manipulation.
'ate me fanservice that isn't really fanservice since we have to watch these people get screwed over and be told they were naughty and deserved it and mom knows best.
'ate me clumsy and forced themes.
Luv me Vrtra.
Luv me Hythlodaeus.
Luv me glory be soup.
Luv me Ra-La and John Globalcitizen.

Simple as.

---

Skyborne, this glorious entry was post number 69 (nice). Please say it's not your last!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Oh no, people aren't trying justify Emet's actions at all.

They mostly dislike how everyone in the story seems to ignore the implications that Venat/Hydaelyn was directly/indirectly responsible for a lot more harm then just the Sundering yet is painted in a far more positive light then her peers simply because her path was framed as being the only available option for the world's survival by necessity due to how all the time travel/causal loop nonsense functions.

---

It's that, but also the fact that they've framed it as a function of her belief (and to add to this, wrote it in such a way as you can sustain an interpretation like Brinne's, that she romanticised the sundered world based on the WoL's account to some degree), while also leaving some open plot threads that may have been utilised to lead to alternative outcomes, leading the 'necessity' part to be brought into question as well, as well as leaving the question: it worked, but at what cost? Understandably, for a storyline meant to close off the current arc and lead to a new one, many feel this was very messy, didn't do the plot points SHB had developed justice and left several other questions unanswered.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Theodric

A common take has been that it's perfectly justified for the Sundered to do everything possible in order to survive. On the other hand, the same can be said of the Unsundered - it's a reasonable expectation for the Ascians to do whatever is needed to ensure that their people aren't wiped out.

Shadowbringers took that approach and presented it all as an unfortunate but necessary clash of like wills. If Emet won, his people would be restored and the Sundered would be no more. On the other hand, with the Warrior of Light's victory it was the Ancients who were eliminated in their entirety. The problem, then is that it is Venat who put both sides in such a horrific position in the first place but all sorts of contrived plot devices are pulled out in order to try and awkwardly justify it instead of just straight up admitting that it was pretty abhorrent and selfish of her to do as much.

Worse yet, the Sundered didn't even pass her 'test' because at various points they required the aid of not only the Unsundered but various other powerful entities such as the dragons and Omega in order to succeed. The victory against Meteion wasn't entirely their own doing, thus 'Dynamis' comes across as little more than a sad excuse to try and pretend as if the Ancients 'deserved' to be wiped out because they couldn't wield it effectively. (Which has unpleasant implications - especially when Garleans are unable to wield Aether as well as the other races and led to their persecution and near extinction...)

---

^This. The sundered as a whole are even more susceptible to it, with their souls being consumed, and even the strongest amongst them (outside your posse) succumbing to despair in several instances - and this is without the incident spreading anywhere near as far as the original did, or devastating the star to the same degree. We have to remember, enough ancients survived the entire ordeal to summon Zodiark in the first place, so it's not as though they were wilting lilies. The problem is that their creation magicks were also being hijacked in the process (the unaddressed subterranean sound, which the Watcher mentions as well), leading to powerful, corrupted monstrosities roaming the star, while the star itself was dying off, leaving them as the only source of aether to fuel into Zodiark - a being which itself protected the sundered world for 12k years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lauront

The sundered as a whole are even more susceptible to it, with their souls being consumed, and even the strongest amongst them (outside your posse) succumbing to despair in several instances - and this is without the incident spreading anywhere near as far as the original did, or devastating the star to the same degree.

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I feel like this isn't addressed enough. The sundered may be able to interact with dynamis, but the consequence of that is they're also devastatingly susceptible to it. The messaging about 'what breaks one person won' t another' is also inconsequential when it comes to nightmare creatures preying on you.

I thought the messaging of EW was extremely odd because of this. They make it sound like being strong in the face of despair protects you from the Song of Oblivion while not showing that to actually be the case. It would also require inhuman amounts of mental fortitude. I'm reminded of that one brief moment Estinien didn't have his defenses up and Nidhogg took control of him.

Also, when you have the 8UC timeline not being able to handle the after effects of Black Rose I'm definitely not convinced they could handle the Final Days had they had the chance to spread globally as they had during the Ancients' time.

Quote:

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We have to remember, enough ancients survived the entire ordeal to summon Zodiark in the first place, so it's not as though they were wilting lilies.

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No, but I did get the impression their population had been decimated. Amaurot looks like NYC, which I believe has the population of 9 million people. Granted, there's a lot we don't know like whether they had other large metropoli or how many ultimately ended up being sacrificed to Zodiark, but their starting population was at least in the multiple of millions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Simple_Barghest

So did this thread reach the conclusion of "How dare the WoL fight against the Unsundered you big meanie Big Papa Emet was justified" yet?
Or was that already a thing?
I really don't want to read over several hundred pages and who knows how many posts. I already feel like my emotional and time investment in the story was basically a gigantic waste.

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Others have given very good replies, so I'll just take Skyborne's post, bold the parts that really rustled my jimmies personally and underline the worst offender:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

'ate me time loops that have unfortunate implications for the WoL/Hydaelyn if you activate your brain.
'ate me memory wipe devices.
'ate me dynamis ex machina that is now being retroactively justified.
'ate me Garlemald just immediately being dumped offscreen, the towers just being resolved immediately, the body swap scene having no point other than a cool instance, and the whole first half feeling like it was stitched together from the remains of another expansion.
'ate me escort and stealth quests.
'ate me endless Scion speeches, filler that feels like it doesn't respect your time and is there so Yoshi can boast that it's the longest expansion by hours.
'ate me cheap emotional manipulation.
'ate me wet fart of a Final Days that only hits two regions in full and all the protags escape with nary a scratch.
'ate me fanservice that isn't really fanservice since we have to watch these people get screwed over and be told they were naughty and deserved it and mom knows best.
'ate me clumsy and forced themes.

---

(Everything stealth-related had me like, I knew all these years of being an MGS fangirl would pay off one day; you might say it had kept me waiting huh.)

I'll add that personally, as an unabashed Ascian enjoyer since before 5.0, I expected a lot more out of the closing chapter of Hydaelyn/Zodiark. I wanted this to be a high school reunion of Sundered Ascians with conflicting ideals and "what now?" questions, I wanted the Heart of Zodiark to have a lot more to do with the Hydaelyn/Zodiark expansion on equal footing with, you know, the Heart of Hydaelyn, I wanted Gaia to have any sort of significance at all, and you know what, I'll even take involving Unukalhai ever so slightly. I have my criticisms of 5.3, especially now in hindsight that it wasn't setting the scene for more involvement of my favorite character, but one of the things that really hyped me was seeing all the Convocation crystals embracing the Zodiac/FFXII reference and starting to flesh them all out for, presumably, relevance in the near-future. I mean, of course, I was a fool: this never was meant to be the Hydaelyn/Zodiark expansion in the first place, but the Hydaelyn/Sound expansion. I guess I should applaud SE for subverting my expectations. What a curveball! You little rascals.

Instead I got Damn Daniel, who never even bothers appearing in full Ascian regalia and showing us his absolutely-not-lion-shaped mask! I mean, I realise that's precisely his point because he gives zero shits, but I just want to be petty about it. Now that we've had confirmation that Gaius's obviously lion-shaped mask was not actually foreshadowing for an upcoming antagonist supposed to represent Leo (consider my expectations subverted again), we don't even know what Fandaniel's mask actually looked like and I am disproportionately irked by this, and I don't care if it's just me.
(And speaking of that particular Q&A regarding Gaius's masks, the fact that YoshiP opened with "Wow that’s really meticulous of you, you all are really paying close attention to this game." makes me feel a very particular way, like I can't help reading it as "wow, you guys care about this throwaway tidbit??? (proceeds to check notes)".)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lauront

^This. The sundered as a whole are even more susceptible to it, with their souls being consumed, and even the strongest amongst them (outside your posse) succumbing to despair in several instances - and this is without the incident spreading anywhere near as far as the original did, or devastating the star to the same degree. We have to remember, enough ancients survived the entire ordeal to summon Zodiark in the first place, so it's not as though they were wilting lilies. The problem is that their creation magicks were also being hijacked in the process (the unaddressed subterranean sound, which the Watcher mentions as well), leading to powerful, corrupted monstrosities roaming the star, while the star itself was dying off, leaving them as the only source of aether to fuel into Zodiark - a being which itself protected the sundered world for 12k years.

---

Sundered humans were actually lucky the Terminus beasts were actually them undergoing horrific transformation: this way there can only ever be an actually finite number of beasts instead of humans spawning several monstrosities like the Ancients presumably did. Truly, Venat was an unsung definitely sung enough genius.

(As for The Sound itself coming from the earth: I had just presumed it was Meteion's scream bouncing off the ground. I realise this is the most boring theory ever, but it's what we've got so far, and I doubt they're going to go back to that.)

Imo I just wish at least one of the Scions had died.
I think Zenos should've killed one of them when possessing your body, it'd be especially disturbing and escalate the tension a lot.
I think some of the characters are just finished too as far as their character arcs goes, the twins can probably have more potential with a time-skip I think killing Alphy at least could've worked tho but I think Thancred should've died there.
Maybe he could've leapt to intervene when Zenos attacked with your body but Zenos/ your body was just too strong and went straight through his Gunblade or something and killed him.
Imagine after Zenos leaves too and you get your body back and Thancred's last words is just confusion about why you'd kill him, I think it'd fit the overall theme of despair too and be very dramatic and memorable.

Sure it'd be extremely messed up but I think in a good way.
Especially when you go back to the First and see Ryne again, it sounds really depressing but I think that's fine especially in the last expansion of this story too having some really traumatic moments like this would make it better imo.
Even if some people would've gotten mad about it I don't think it matters, there will always be people getting mad when you do stuff like that.
I mean Game of Thrones had a lot of people who got mad when characters died too but I think we can all agree that if no one died in the show that mattered then it would've been boring and not as memorable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Teraq

Sundered humans were actually lucky the Terminus beasts were actually them undergoing horrific transformation: this way there can only ever be an actually finite number of beasts instead of humans spawning several monstrosities like the Ancients presumably did.

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I don't know, that didn't really work out in the Walking Dead. :P As long as there are babies being born there can be new blasphemies. Ooh, how creepy would it be if they could become one in the womb? Now it's a horror story!

Anyway, if any of y'all do Reddit, there's an interesting thread at the moment. I'm surprised to see so much criticism in a space typically intolerant of it. You wouldn't have seen this a couple of months ago.