Would you like an in-game parser?

Hellluuuu uu

Considering Endwalker's obsession with body checks, and absolute failstates where if one thing is wrong then it is a wipe, even down into more casual content like Orthos/Extremes its honestly a bit pathetic they're afraid of including tools in the game that help you gauge and improve performance.

Either design the game with that in mind, or make the game about improving your own performance. Right now they're trying to have their cake and eat it too.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Considering Endwalker's obsession with body checks, and absolute failstates where if one thing is wrong then it is a wipe, even down into more casual content like Orthos/Extremes its honestly a bit pathetic they're afraid of including tools in the game that help you gauge and improve performance.

Either design the game with that in mind, or make the game about improving your own performance. Right now they're trying to have their cake and eat it too.

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What I've always found hilariously ironic is they designed a job that is impossible to properly optimize without the very program they don't want people using in Astro. Can you blindly put cards on a Samurai and Black Mage? Sure, but those aren't always the optimal choice. In fact, a good many Astros will never realize Dark Knight is the second best target in your opener while Ninja is the best. Why? Samurai takes much longer to "rev up" and Dark Knight has an absurdly burst-y opener.

Now it certainly won't make or break any runs if you don't card the correct people every time. That doesn't make it any less silly to design a job around buffing other jobs without any way for the players to know who's doing the highest damage and when.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

This is decidedly untrue because you're comparing a stationary target against moving parts. Just look up a video of Pandaemonium (P10S) and SNIIIIP

Stone, Sky, Star, while not entirely useless is a very poor metric to determine if a player is competent for Savage.

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I don't agree, you knowing the your numbers in the battle spot on grant you just as little oversight over the things... I don't buy the thing with the boss can move and the likes as an excuse, as you got all kinds of ways to keep your uptime needed... and those times it is out of reach, no one can hit them anyway... or you can't figure out how to position yourself just enough to be able to touch it with your hands.

1. You can only do the things by learningand actually doing the stuff, the first thing you need to do is to do the DPS check, which is the dummies, if you can beat them before the timer runs out = you do enough damage to be able to beat the content.

2. Now comes the boss, you need to learn how it behaves and what it does, and that is that... if you have done savage or ex. trials or whatever then you KNOW... that the bosses has times where you can't hurt them... meaning you need to time where you put your hardest hitting openers and when they go off CD again... and or if you should wait a second for doing the next hard hit onto the boss untill after he gets free again for a full burst... a DPS meter can not tell you that, nor a parser, you should be visible able to feel, see and when to do your big stuff and not when it is to late or you miss out doing alot of damage on the boss due to forced cutscene or special dodging events.

3. Learn the script of the boss, yes you can do that... if you kill it to some % to fast you may want to hold back on DPS because it will get unvulnerable or out of your harms way that you would just waste your CD and it beign Off when it returns.

4. Beat the boss on your terms.. in some situations it would actually seem like less DPS due to bosses off time in one phase and much higher DPS in the phase after... that can change a bit from the various jobs that some get to do more damage en eg. p1. and less in p2... while others do less in p1 compared to p2 all due to how the skills is lined up with time and the likes.

5. maximize your time hitting the boss, and with all the jumps and leaps various jobs has for close range, then that can be arranged as well as well as position neutrality for certain things the bosses do that make you unable to move into the perfect position for maximum damage.

Yes you can use a Stationary target to that, it is accounted for that it move, go into phases where you cant hurt it and more, it is all about being having as much uptime as possible (90-99%) and doing your rotations well
You don't need numbers to show you that, you should know your job well enough to know if you did enough... or if you missed the window.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

unfortunately that is the thruth.

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If the thruth is a parody of truth, then sure.

In the sense that repeating misconstrued anecdotes enough times would finally make them an accurate reading of the situation, let alone broader statistical evidence. The thruth.

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If you can beat the dummies set out for it, you do enough, that means you do your rotations well enough to be able to beat whatever boss in thegame.

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Yes, because dummies have forced downtime to be compensated for, alongside all the distracting mechanics of actually playing a Savage/Ultimate fight, right?

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If SE put in open DPS meters in the game is the same if giving them permission to shame others

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Before:
Harassing others is against the ToA. It is a bannable offense.

After:
Harassing others is against the ToA. It is a bannable offense.

I'm failing to see the difference between those two pictures.

The reason the parser is even a problem is because of design choices aped from games that encourage the use of it. Reality is that FFXIV has no real decision structure to anything when it comes to content, even savage. They pushed the entire design into simply being an arms race to kill the boss the fastest, which encourages specifically rotation optimization on damage over any other role or function such as healing, evading, doing side objectives, etc. The only times where they can even manage something besides a dps race is with weird mini-game segments like High Concept and Levin Strike, where the boss can't be targeted by anyone.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

What I've always found hilariously ironic is they designed a job that is impossible to properly optimize without the very program they don't want people using in Astro. Can you blindly put cards on a Samurai and Black Mage? Sure, but those aren't always the optimal choice. In fact, a good many Astros will never realize Dark Knight is the second best target in your opener while Ninja is the best. Why? Samurai takes much longer to "rev up" and Dark Knight has an absurdly burst-y opener.

Now it certainly won't make or break any runs if you don't card the correct people every time. That doesn't make it any less silly to design a job around buffing other jobs without any way for the players to know who's doing the highest damage and when.

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The same can be said for the optimal person to give Dance Partner to while playing on DNC. Outside of 2min buff windows, Ive found that a good Black Mage will tend to have the highest damage, depending on various factors including gear, fight, and rotation. Yes, just giving DP to the highest DPS melee the entire time is good enough for savage and old ultimates, but that route of optimization is there for DNC as well.

I can see this being abused pretty easily. If for instance your just running your regular expert roulette and the party sees that you are falling a little short of what top tier savage raiders are doing for DPS, then it could be decided that they want to remove you from the party even though you are still perfectly capable of clearing the roulette. This could also become pretty common place, since people tend to want to hold themselves as better than or as part of an elite group, and removing members from a party that they feel are not performing to their standards, no matter how viable it is in the content they are running, is one way of making them feel that way.

Let's have it. It is a good tool to see how well you are playing your class. If you are worried about looking bad then either learn your job better or get some thicker skin. People get hurt over stupid crap anyways

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Originally Posted by Colt47

The reason the parser is even a problem is because of design choices aped from games that encourage the use of it. Reality is that FFXIV has no real decision structure to anything when it comes to content, even savage. They pushed the entire design into simply being an arms race to kill the boss the fastest, which encourages specifically rotation optimization on damage over any other role or function such as healing, evading, doing side objectives, etc.

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You realize that the reward for optimizing healing, evading, mitigating, etc.... is damage?

There is only one objective in XIV, not because of some elitist mindset, but because every fight in this game is a matter of reducing a unit's HP to 0. We have no heal-fights. We have no defense-fights. We have no courier fights. We literally only have kill-it-dead. If you want something else to feel like the reward for optimization, you'll need a fight for which the clear ultimately depends on something other than damage.

Even our current fight design supports "decision structures" whereby sacrificing short-term damage for additional mitigation may be a long-term dps increase. But every reward will be capped except for that of damage, since only damage clears fight.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I can see this being abused pretty easily. If for instance your just running your regular expert roulette and the party sees that you are falling a little short of what top tier savage raiders are doing for DPS, then it could be decided that they want to remove you from the party even though you are still perfectly capable of clearing the roulette. This could also become pretty common place, since people tend to want to hold themselves as better than or as part of an elite group, and removing members from a party that they feel are not performing to their standards, no matter how viable it is in the content they are running, is one way of making them feel that way.

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The main character of Twitter recently was someone who went and looked up the logs of people they were in expert roulette with and talked trash about them in party chat. They got rightfully roasted by the majority but there were a fair number in the XIV community who didn't see anything wrong with that mentality. Problem is, where can anyone let their hair down in that environment? A raider needs to worry about those numbers in harder content. But if they always have to keep their raid game face on, where do they and anyone else get a chance to relax and maybe derp here and there and be human? It should be in content where those numbers aren't as important but a official parser would bring an end to that because it would be SE endorsing that mentality throughout their game. I've gotten the impression from the topic when it comes up that that's the last thing they want to do. They know the tools are used for the harder content. They won't bust anyone over using them for improvement. But they don't want that to be what the game becomes about. Because there is some content where fun matters more.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I can see this being abused pretty easily. If for instance your just running your regular expert roulette and the party sees that you are falling a little short of what top tier savage raiders are doing for DPS, then it could be decided that they want to remove you from the party even though you are still perfectly capable of clearing the roulette. This could also become pretty common place, since people tend to want to hold themselves as better than or as part of an elite group, and removing members from a party that they feel are not performing to their standards, no matter how viable it is in the content they are running, is one way of making them feel that way.

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Please think this through. You have one of two situations:

Toxic elitist announces in chat they want to kick another person from duty finder because they do low dps. This will very quickly land them in GM jail.

Toxic elitist attempts to kick silently which is already possible in its entirety. Nothing is going to change to the current situation then.

Yoshi said no to parsers in every language the game is published in both oral and written form.

I bet he would rather shut down the game than offer parsers. This is a hill he would die on.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

Yoshi said no to parsers in every language the game is published in both oral and written form.

I bet he would rather shut down the game than offer parsers. This is a hill he would die on.

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He did the same thing regarding the ability to have glamours in PvP, among a dozen other things.

Tfw parsers are simply #17 in the list of the things he said could not ever and would not ever happen because he finally had the misfortune of informing himself.

__________

To be clear:

I don't think there's much benefit to an all-players-shown official version of ACT. ACT is rudimentary at best, with a decent chance of lacking so much context as to be misleading or at least needing several samples to get reliable information out of it where one would otherwise be enough if using a better metric (say, relative potency, instead of raw, crit/dhit-adjusted damage).

But an actually polished design and its accordant surroundings, deliberately and pretty comprehensively built to be a learning tool? That would absolutely be a boon for the game.

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Tfw parsers are simply #17 in the list of the things he said could not ever and would not ever happen because he finally had the misfortune of informing himself.

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Seeing the number of times we have seen trolls try to comb through peoples logs as a means to humiliate them, Id say YoshiPs stance is the correct one.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Seeing the number of times we have seen trolls try to comb through peoples logs as a means to humiliate them, Id say YoshiPs stance is the correct one.

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So instead we should have people confidently asserting things they know nothing about, and when we bring actual receipts that prove that's not true, it becomes about "mean harassment" instead of...being wrong about things.

Toxic casuals want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to never improve, never learn anything, never do difficult content. and also be seen as luminaries who should definitely be listened to as authorities without question.

It's not about the numbers. It's about projecting insecurity. Plain and simple.

Yesn't
Notys

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So instead we should have people confidently asserting things they know nothing about, and when we bring actual receipts that prove that's not true, it becomes about "mean harassment" instead of...being wrong about things.

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I know enough about parser culture and its accompanying behaviour to know we dont want it here. One does not have to eat rat droppings to know you dont want them on the dinner table.

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Toxic casuals want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to never improve, never learn anything, never do difficult content. and also be seen as luminaries who should definitely be listened to as authorities without question.

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Or you have veterans like me that are simply not interested in climbing back on that merry go round any longer. I am surprised that you dont realise that after a while, it gets to the point where it doesnt appeal to you any longer, and where you decide you want to do what interests YOU and no one else. I dont see why anyone has an issue with players deciding how they want, and do not want to spend their time on.

You'd actually die of shock if you ever knew how many like me there are.. No more schedules, no more multiple wipes for hour after hour, no more loot or FC drama, log and log off when it suits YOU.

Never learn anything? You learn every day new things every day. This is...news?

"You should WANT to do HARD content, you should WANT to raid you should WANT to "challenge yourself".

Nope. I should want to do whatever i like.

But its okay. You're young.

You'll learn the hard way that perspectives, priorities change as you get older, and as that time goes, all of a sudden that hamster wheel of raid, get gear, wait till new tier, rinse wash repeat, starts to pale a little. All of sudden one day they will say " Be here at 6pm" and you will feel tired, worn out, fed up..you've already worked a long hard shift, had to cover for others, or done back to back shifts for over a week and all you want is to actually relax. Or sleep.

Or sit back with family you may one day have, accepting that spending time with them is far more important than pixels in a video game. If you ever marry and have children, trust me, what is important to you, essential, will take a massive U turn. You will blink and suddenly realise the last two weeks have vanished into thin air, wondering where the time went. But the kids need help with homework, youve come home late from work, absolutely worn out, you will remember that "Oh yeah we are raiding tonight".

No two guesses which will matter more to you, either. One is a computer game..the other is your actual life and those around you.

Remember:

Thats all this is, mate. A video game.

Thats all it is ......all it will ever be.

No need to "validate who you are" through saying "I did it when it was HARD"...Ive met challenges you will never know ( at least dear God, I hope you never do. You dont want those memories. Trust me..you dont. ). In all your peregrinations and thundering proclamations, that small fact seems to have escaped your notice.

You are LITERALLY having a conniption fit over what others do in a video game. Because they wont do what YOU want.

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t's not about the numbers. It's about projecting insecurity. Plain and simple.

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More about the blatant misuse and abuse of a tool, that is supposedly " for your own improvement" yet that same tool is used to belittle, harass and scream abuse at others. Said misuse is rampant in a parser culture, quite frankly, that YoshiP doesnt want that kind of attitude here comes as no surprise.

I happen to agree with him.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

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People: we want a tool to help us improve in the game we enjoy playing.
VelKanor: brings up irrelevant irl experiences and feelings that have nothing to do with the topic.

Also, what new have you learnt today?
Also, please show examples of people harassing others over damage in savage/ex content.

Oh wait, you don't do that content.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

People: we want a tool to help us improve in the game we enjoy playing.
VelKanor: brings up irrelevant irl experiences and feelings that have nothing to do with the topic.

Also, what new have you learnt today?
Also, please show examples of people harassing others over damage in savage/ex content.

Oh wait, you don't do that content.

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I have the feeling VelKallor would also be one of the fanatics that defended the lack of jumping in 1.0. Everything thats not already in the game is bad and not needed cause they think the developers are gods.

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People: we want a tool to help us improve in the game we enjoy playing.

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...that has been proven over time immemorial to be ripe for misuse and abuse

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VelKanor: brings up irrelevant irl experiences and feelings that have nothing to do with the topic.

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Read it again.

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Also, what new have you learnt today?

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I learned about the history of Ghana, did some reading of Aristophanes and learned two new rice recipes. You?

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Also, please show examples of people harassing others over damage in savage/ex content. Oh wait, you don't do that content.

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I dont need to illustrate behaviour that has been commonly observed over different games for the last what...ten years? If it can be abused and misused..it will be.

The reasons for no dps meters have been stated repeatedly. if you choose not to accept that, then thats your issue.

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Originally Posted by Shinkuno

I have the feeling VelKallor would also be one of the fanatics that defended the lack of jumping in 1.0. Everything thats not already in the game is bad and not needed cause they think the developers are gods.

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Didnt play 1.0.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

...that has been proven over time immemorial to be ripe for misuse and abuse




I dont need to illustrate behaviour that has been commonly observed over different games for the last what...ten years? If it can be abused and misused..it will be.

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If you can't support your claim with an evidence, don't make that claim. Because so far, you're all talk and nothing more.
The problem with anti parcer people that you hide behind the ToS when it comes to third party tools, but completely ignore it when it comes to harassment.
Convenient isn't it?

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

...that has been proven over time immemorial to be ripe for misuse and abuse

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There's far more evidence to show that SE's existing ToS makes griefing people over their DPS just about the second fastest way to get banned, only coming in behind hurling slurs in /shout.

However, a full bore ACT clone in game isn't the answer anyway as I genuinely don't think it would gain much traction outside of the console crowd.

Personally I'd much rather see a simple system that notes your average potency per second across the instance, compares it to a historic trend of others running the same instance on the same job and then generates an S to F style ranked score from that. Nothing specific, nothing numeric and shown to that player only.

It achieves a few key things without room for negativity or fear mongering, the key being that it dangles a carrot nudging people to try a bit harder, play a little better, something the game currently fails to do. It's ignorable and the point isn't to gate anything behind it. Plenty of people see a score and get the instinct to try and improve it and this is aimed squarely at them, plenty of people likely don't even realise they are playing awfully because the game won't tell them and other players aren't allowed to, again, this is aimed at improving that situation.

More people trying that little bit harder or even just realising that they could potentially be playing better would make the overall DF experience a better one IMO.

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If you can't support your claim with an evidence, don't make that claim. Because so far, you're all talk and nothing more.

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Your naivete is..amusing. In a sad kind of way . The fact that FF 14, Lost Ark, Tera Online , GW2 AND New World have ALL banned the use of dps meters should tell you something on its own. ESO in fact disabled their ingame dps meter some time ago.

They had one, it was abused and misused so it was REMOVED. Their API was also changed to make them unusable.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.co...-dps-hps-meter

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There used to be an addon that did this. It was stopped because it caused misuse and harassment. Was a long time ago.

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Do we see a PATTERN here?

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The problem with anti parcer people that you hide behind the ToS when it comes to third party tools, but completely ignore it when it comes to harassment.
Convenient isn't it?

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I dont use any third party tools of any kind.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Your naivete is..amusing. In a sad kind of way . The fact that FF 14, Lost Ark, Tera Online , GW2, AND New World have ALL banned the use of dps meters should tell you something on its own. ESO in fact disabled their ingame dps meter some time ago. They had one, it was abused and misused so it was REMOVED.

Their API was also changed to make them unusable.

Do we see a PATTERN here?



Dont use any third party tools of any kind.

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Chronically incapable of adressing the arguement that harassment over bad dps is against ToS and therefore wouldnt fly even with an ingame dps meter. Even when quoting that direct point. Incredible.

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Chronically incapable of adressing the arguement that harassment over bad dps is against ToS and therefore wouldnt fly even with an ingame dps meter. Even when quoting that direct point. Incredible.

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Dont be disingenuous, it doesnt suit you. DPS meters are an enabler of toxic, abusive behaviour. The fact that ESO had one and then REMOVED it says volumes.

So, tell me, why do YOU think it was that all these other MMOs have that one factor in common, hm?

Enlighten me why it is that all these other MMOS have THE SAME policy on dps meters.

Whatever could that reason be.....:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Your naivete is..amusing. In a sad kind of way . The fact that FF 14, Lost Ark, Tera Online , GW2 AND New World have ALL banned the use of dps meters should tell you something on its own. ESO in fact disabled their ingame dps meter some time ago.

They had one, it was abused and misused so it was REMOVED. Their API was also changed to make them unusable.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.co...-dps-hps-meter



Do we see a PATTERN here?



I dont use any third party tools of any kind.

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You linked a thread from 2020 where some random player said something and it's not even official post. In a thread where someone else asks about how to set up parcer lmao.
You are right, I do see a pattern here. But it's not about parcer nor harassment.
I guess it's the best you can do.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Dont be disingenuous, it doesnt suit you. DPS meters are an enabler of toxic, abusive behaviour. The fact that ESO had one and then REMOVED it says volumes.

So, tell me, why do YOU think it was that all these other MMOs have that one factor in common, hm?

Enlighten me why it is that all these other MMOS have THE SAME policy on dps meters.

Whatever could that reason be.....:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

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Toxicity festers when there is a lack of moderation. Toxic people will be toxic, regardless of which tool they use. It's GMs that keep them in check. The credible threat of punishment, which ff14 has, is what is holding toxicity at bay. Not the "lack" of dps meter.
According to your logic it would be entirely okay to harass someone over dying multiple times in a raid. Afterall that information is displayed for everyone to see.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Chronically incapable of adressing the arguement that harassment over bad dps is against ToS and therefore wouldnt fly even with an ingame dps meter. Even when quoting that direct point. Incredible.

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Chronically incapable of addressing the argument that harassment over bad dps is exacerbated by official recognition of a tool that has been misused for the purpose of harassment over and over again in other games. Incredible.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Chronically incapable of addressing the argument that harassment over bad dps is exacerbated by official recognition of a tool that has been misused for the purpose of harassment over and over again in other games. Incredible.

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I literally adressed that in the post above.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Chronically incapable of addressing the argument that harassment over bad dps is exacerbated by official recognition of a tool that has been misused for the purpose of harassment over and over again in other games. Incredible.

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But that's why ToS for harassment is right there, right? Or we're not going to talk about it because it doesn't fit the narrative again? Not so dramatic with it.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

But that's why ToS for harassment is right there, right? Or we're not going to talk about it because it doesn't fit the narrative again?

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Yeah, the ToS has things about harassment, as does every other game out there. That doesn't mean that the game should provide a tool that makes harassment easier.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Yeah, the ToS has things about harassment, as does every other game out there. That doesn't mean that the game should provide a tool that makes harassment easier.

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The game should provide tools for players to improve when it does nothing to teach them about anything besides what their roles do. And then people go into harder content not expecting a difficulty spike and harass others with their lack of knowledge and free style skill pressing.
You can get a warning or a ban here for emote spam in chat. Imagine how harassment is taken here by GMs.

The harassment will exist regardless.

IMO, as long as they moderate their platform well enough then people wouldn't really have the stones to harass with a parser.

Everything that would exist as a result of a native parser, already exists.

In fact, you may actually find that with a native parser, the contrary might exist... Wherein harassment would actually be less prevalent.

I guess mulling it over, I would like to see them, yes. If for no other reason than to allow those that tackle content to use features native to the game, and for people to reflect on their own performance.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Yeah, the ToS has things about harassment, as does every other game out there. That doesn't mean that the game should provide a tool that makes harassment easier.

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You know what makes harassment really easy? A chat. Time to remove that :)

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

You linked a thread from 2020 where some random player said something and it's not even official post. In a thread where someone else asks about how to set up parcer lmao.
You are right, I do see a pattern here. But it's not about parcer nor harassment.
I guess it's the best you can do.

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Date doesnt matter. Nothing has changed since then..

I looked into getting ESO a week ago, spoke to a few people who play now, they confirm that ESO does not have, and will not ever have, any kind of ingame officially sanctioned dps meter.

There are addons, yes, but they are unofficial, unsanctioned, unauthorised third party programs. Use them at your own risk.

But hey if you are that cynical or want to accused me of making this up, go ask anyone who plays. Tell me how that goes.

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Originally Posted by Shinkuno

You know what makes harassment really easy? A chat. Time to remove that :)

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You mean like in PvP? lol Yeh, players can't be trusted. Also, it's never gonna happen. Case closed.

I’ve probably weighted in on this before but game doesn’t need one. Not even wow has an official ingame parser.

I think the status quo of it’s up to the player to do the learning and investigate 3rd party sources for higher level optimization is fine.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Date doesnt matter. Nothing has changed since then..

I looked into getting ESO a week ago, spoke to a few people who play now, they confirm that ESO does not have, and will not ever have, any kind of ingame officially sanctioned dps meter.

There are addons, yes, but they are unofficial, unsanctioned, unauthorised third party programs. Use them at your own risk.

But hey if you are that cynical or want to accused me of making this up, go ask anyone who plays. Tell me how that goes.

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Why would I go and ask someone about it when it's you who are making this statement proved by nothing but "hey I've seen in on the internet somewhere"?
I know that most of your posts can't be taken seriously but I've given you a chance to at least prove your claims and you gave me nothing but words said by someone else in another game entirely.
I asked you to give me example of players getting harassed in savage/ex content, but the problem is - you don't do that content so you have no idea if it happens there or not. You and other forum posters like you who are against something like parcer only bring "oh ye it happens", but I am yet to see any screenshots of this happening in FF14 over a parcer.

The toxicity and outright weird behavior that stems from the third-party availability of these tools is already bad enough, and has only gotten worse over the years as plugin usage has become increasingly widespread.

A while back I used to support this kind of thing (probably even in this thread lol), but my interactions with certain parts of the community over the last few years has really cemented a strong distaste for it.