Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

Just to shed some insight, Full Thrust and Chaos Thrust are the two 'fastest' executing abilities through which you can chain a jump and both have interesting sound cues to help you time.

Full Thrust has you lowering your polearm and then jumping upwards, there is a 'charge up' sound and then a 'release' sound that happens when you're halfway through the jump and didn't reach apex yet. The point in which the animation can be cancelled into a Jump is roughly when the jump is at it's apex and if you press the jump button at about the time the 'release' noise has went off the jump will actually go off in a smooth motion, having spent about only half a second of hte GCD (it also looks cool as hell).

Chaos Thrust has three distinct slashing noises and a fourth 'finisher' noise. I can't help out much with the timing on that, i'm WAY too used to the noise from 1.0 which was a good 3 seconds long, but I did realize that you can cancel into a jump before the 'finisher' noise, however.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

In terms of the other discussion on Jump timing, I've noticed that Phlebotomize seems to have a relatively quick animation.

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Actually this is a good point, when I get off work tonight I'm going to have to try throwing Jumps after Phlebotomize because it does have an incredibly quick animation and see how it does

I'm guessing you are all talking about using Jump on bosses that are relatively tame, which is few in the endgame dungeons and battles. Jump is extremely dangerous on any boss that has particularly heavy avoidable AoE or other attacks that require movement. This means that you have to time Jump at a safe moment (after said attacks) which can cripple your rotations due to previously mentioned posts - unless you somehow land on a quick animation TP combo. This doesn't give you room to put up Power Surge, either. In fact I have just been skimming this thread after page 5 and I haven't taken notice to a PS+Jump rotation.

Really the best jump is Shatterdive for its gap closing ability on monsters/bosses that don't require stuns.

Dragoon - A jump skills fix needed asap reborn.

I'm working slowly my way towards Titan Hard right now. I can say that on everything up to Amdapor Keep (as well as Dhrome Chimera) I use Jump as long as it is avaiable on cooldown. Every boss has sufficient safe spots, specially if you are on melee range (jump's animation is longer the more distance there is). Just need to know it better.
Trickiest boss to jump on up to now has been Dhorme Chimera because of it's wonky AoEs that are really tricky to dodge, specially when he starts using them instantly. But he has a blind spot in his left side, near his back.

the turning kinda makes the blind spot unreliable for me. i jump when he is busy red circling in a different direction

titan does an ability every 5 seconds in a set order, he is actually one of the easier ones to jump with.

You put your stun into rotation for DPS but not utility. Tanks are going to scream at you :/ Other than that it's decent. Works for a perfect situation where nothing moves, turns, casts abilities, and there is 0% chance of lag. Also didn't see any output. Would be nice for comparisons.

EDIT: You forgot to mention Elusive Jump drops negative movement impairing effects on the player.

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Originally Posted by Vedrix_Sorio

EDIT: You forgot to mention Elusive Jump drops negative movement impairing effects on the player.

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This part has shown to be really useful in Dhrome Chimera and AK for me. I'm not a perfect player, still get hit sometimes and getting slowed is AWFUL in those cases

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Originally Posted by Jaybar

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Power Surge can be used in between any GCD ability because it is relatively instant cast. Generally when I'm setting up a Jump I use: TT > Power Surge > VT > Life Break > FT > Jump .

As for Endgame bosses, there are very few (if any) bosses that I do not use Jump in. After you fight the boss multiple times, you generally know exactly when you are safe to use Jump (Ifrit any time he uses Radiant Plume and you are already in the safe position, Garuda pretty much any time you aren't chasing plumes or fighting adds, AK Demon wall at the exact moment he uses repel, AK final boss any time he's not about to use imminent catastrophe. Note, I still haven't done coil yet, but I'm sure those bosses will have safe moments too. Just have to know when.

The whole Jumping during boss AOE thing gets really overblown by fresh 50's fighting bosses for the first time. Yes, it will get you in bad spots the first 1-2 times you fight a boss. By the third time however, you should be able to easily discern it's patterns and know exactly when and when not to Jump, not very difficult at all. Exceptions to this rule would be bosses that deal very random order of attacks like Chimera, but those bosses are the rarity. The vast majority of endgame bosses have very predictable and strict patterns.

So just out of curiosity, Dragoons; what are your DPS numbers on boss fights? Namely fights like HM Garuda/Titan, or bosses in AK. I'm curious to see how I do in comparison to others, as I generally don't ever see Dragoons ;-;

AK i usually do 210-250 COUNTING LIMITBREAK
Garuda i finished 162
titan i havent killed yet but usually im around 190 (never gotten him below 30%)

I'm half darklight half AK set with garuda's spear.

just did garuda again, 165. also: if you could post yours on tort as well i'd be interested

I'll run some tomorrow, now that I am full darklight/relic +1, and give it a post. I've a feeling my personal rotation is pretty bad. I need to try and figure out a better way for specific fights xD. I sadly never really see other Dragoons, so I don't really pick up any tricks along the way, just what I've learned on my own.

Thanks so much for this thread
+1

so has anyone figured out whats best yet?

i was doing the 27 rotation on titan and got out dmged by 20k from a guy who was just spaming heavy thrust, the 3 back combo, and then full thrust for the rest

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Originally Posted by Shunyu

so has anyone figured out whats best yet?

i was doing the 27 rotation on titan and got out dmged by 20k from a guy who was just spaming heavy thrust, the 3 back combo, and then full thrust for the rest

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There are too many unknowns in your statement to give you an adequate answer. I do quite well compared to other classes and Dragoons, I'm sure there are players who are better and worse than myself. The best information we have about Dragoon damage is contained within this thread, so peruse it, see what works and what doesn't, what you like and what you don't, then practice it until you're satisfied.

It is impossible for me to get a DPS analyzer tool or whatever they are called because I'm playing on PS3. Is the aggro bar a good way to compare DPS? My gear is average and I'm using the rotating from the OP post. But in dungeons my aggro bar has always been lower than that of Mages or Bards. Is this normal or do I just suck? I can't compare to other dragoons or monks since I never get matched with them in DF.

I typically don't have damage issues in my groupings, the only time I truly have trouple is when the healer needs me to play off-tank

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Originally Posted by BillyBones

It is impossible for me to get a DPS analyzer tool or whatever they are called because I'm playing on PS3. Is the aggro bar a good way to compare DPS? My gear is average and I'm using the rotating from the OP post. But in dungeons my aggro bar has always been lower than that of Mages or Bards. Is this normal or do I just suck? I can't compare to other dragoons or monks since I never get matched with them in DF.

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the damage meter is an external program. the PS3, atm, would have no way to run it. the agro meter is NOT a dps analyzer in the least. Things like buffs gain a stagnant amount of agro. For instance when a blackmage gains thundercloud or firestarter they will inch up on the meter. For whatever reason our buffs dont seem to gain near as much as a bard's. We tested this like a month ago but my GF was able to do less than half my damage (only pressing a damage button every few seconds) and still keep her agro higher than mine on the agro meter as a bard.

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Originally Posted by Shunyu

so has anyone figured out whats best yet?

i was doing the 27 rotation on titan and got out dmged by 20k from a guy who was just spaming heavy thrust, the 3 back combo, and then full thrust for the rest

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Boss fights can be a difficult place to figure out optimal rotations since there are so many variables. Obviously you want something viable in actual boss fights, but it's good to test things out in a controlled environment first to see what's optimal in perfect conditions, then adjust your rotation accordingly to the fight. For that reason, I'd suggest just going to a training dummy and trying out different rotations while parsing. You can find them in the first "starter" town of every area. If you forget which it is, just go to an aetheryte in a city and pick the first gate teleport, then look for the closest outpost, that will have the dummies.

Dragoons for running trash areas (AK, WP and probably Coil turn 3). When facing groups of 3 or 4 mobs... Bold moves are off-GCD

IR - HT - BfB - RoT - Ph - Leg Sweep - I - Power Surge (if Dragonfire is on CD) - D - C (tab to secondary target and during animation tab back) - Dragonfire (if off CD otherwise regular Jump) (keep in mind you are back on the original target for this) - TT - Life Surge - T - HT - RoT (if still 3 targets remain) - Ph (on secondary target if first is still alive) - Leg Sweep - ID - C (tab to the third target now to use this on as first is probably dead) - Spineshatter Dive (back on current) - TTT - Repeat

Consistently top parsed damage by a wide margin with this rotation (literally 20-30 DPS higher than the other DPS on a full run which is spread out over a long period so numbers will be smaller). I've even been able to top a second Dragoon by 10 DPS when she was using Relic + full DL vs. my Ifrit + half DL.

It's a crazy rotation, but there's a method to this madness.

1. Chaos Thrust will never get full use out of trash mobs if you use it on the one you are currently dps'ing down, always tab to a secondary target when possible.
2. RoT has 150*number of mobs potency when used right after HT, might as well take advantage of that. However! I've found it's not as high DPS to just spam it at 100 potency even if hitting 3 targets. This is because the 300 potency attacks when crit will do massive damage, while our other AOEs when critting only has a chance to crit per mob, so you might crit 100 potency on one mob but not the other two. But you can guarantee a hard hit with Life Surge so might as well get the full 300 potency - Heavy Thrust - Disemboweled mob crit.
3. Adding Fracture to this slows it down too much for other skills, you wont get full duration on the DoTs, I do however use the main rotation on page 1 with Fracture against bosses because it does eke out an extra 2-3 dps.

4. I've found that Jumps after Chaos Thrust is by far the fastest. Full Thrust is pretty fast too, but you literally cut off half the animation of Chaos thrust if you spam jump during it. You are practically landed already by the time the CT flowers 'hit' the enemy.

Anyway, just thought I'd toss out some fun variants for Dragoons that come to this thread. It seems only the serious DRGs come to this thread, the ones that know our damage potential even with all the naysayers.

95% of the time, vs. a primal or in a dungeon I'm the top parsed DPS. Just don't let SE know so we might get more buffs in the future from them thinking we are too weak ;).

I'm a relic owner and in regard to jump, if you have disembowel debuff up on the mob and heavy thrust buff on you w/ blood for blood and internal strikes, a power surged jump will crit for 800+ easy. I fix my buffs into my rotation for a nice smooth routine and every time my buffs are up there's a nice rather large damage spike w/ jump included. Plus Jump isn't on the global cooldown so easily fits in-between your normal skill combos. Minus buffs, jump is just a extra attack for basic damage or hitting an escaping mob, but using your abilities as they come up turns it into an impressive tool for optimizing total damage.

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Originally Posted by Zenmaku

- D - C (tab to secondary target and during animation tab back)

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Yeah I generally drop both the Disembowel and the Chaos Thrust on the side targets so that the next HT -> ROT will get bonus piercing damage as well (and the direct damage on CT will hit harder). Generally TTT should never be used on 3 or more targets. HT + ROT will net more DPS at a close-to-efficient damage-per-TP. On 4-5 targets you want to HT -> ROT continuously pretty much. On 6+ targets you want to Doom Spike spam (after 1 HT - ROT) -- it's almost as TP-efficient as HT-ROT with that many targets.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

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Yeah on 5+ targets Doom Spike for sure. I like using TT (LifeSurge) T whenever possible however for that guaranteed 800+ crit. On 3 targets I actually find HT - RoT to be slightly weaker DPS than TTT because of my current crit rate, but I've never tried stacking DoTs + HT / ROT in between.

I'll have to give: HT - RoT - Ph - I - DC (secondary target) - HT - RoT - Ph (second target) I - DC (third target) - etc. tonight to see how it fares on the numbers. Throwing in off-GDC jumps etc. as usual of course.

Honestly stuff like this is why I think while most people talk trash about DRG we are at least by far the most fun class to play. There is a lot of variance in our rotation that still has yet to be discovered. Thanks for the DoT swapping / RoT idea Easymode, I'll have to parse that tonight and compare AK runs to see how it goes!

after reading 19 pages of this thread im certainly not sure to leave fr in the rotation or just skip it... but first page shows false dmg values for ph and fr

PH should be: 170 + ((10*18)/3))= 60 =>230 instead of ayvars: 170+120=>290

FR should be: 100 +((20*30)/3)) =200 =>300 instead of ayvars: 100+120=> 220

something must be wrong with my values here since FR is considered that weak to skip in the rotation. can anyone help me understand the dotapplication here?

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Originally Posted by VersusVI

after reading 19 pages of this thread im certainly not sure to leave fr in the rotation or just skip it... but first page shows false dmg values for ph and fr

PH should be: 170 + ((10*18)/3))= 60 =>230 instead of ayvars: 170+120=>290

FR should be: 100 +((20*30)/3)) =200 =>300 instead of ayvars: 100+120=> 220

something must be wrong with my values here since FR is considered that weak to skip in the rotation. can anyone help me understand the dotapplication here?

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PH is 170 + (20*18/3) = 290

FR is 100 + (20*18/3) = 220

Fracture DoT duration is only 30 seconds for MRD/WAR. I believe the potency of Phlebotomize was buffed after beta which might be why your number is wrong there. Personally, I don't use Fracture on DRG, but Phlebotomize is a good skill for us.

I have a question, i used the damage meter app, but saw that dots are not displayed. Can we use the damage meter usefull as a dragoon?

where does Accuracy goes in the chart?

How do you guys use your DPS boost cooldowns like BfB, Internal Release etc? Do you blow them all at once for biggest burst, or rotate them for more uptime?

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Originally Posted by Cingen

How do you guys use your DPS boost cooldowns like BfB, Internal Release etc? Do you blow them all at once for biggest burst, or rotate them for more uptime?

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BfB should always be on cooldown because it will constantly increase your DPS. The only times you want to avoid it are times you are guaranteed to take lots of damage (like Garuda when adds spawn).
I usually use IR early and keep it on CD as much as possible. I use Life Surge only for either a Power Surge Jump or a Full Thrust for the huge guaranteed Crit. But yeah, generally IR + BfB is a big combination that should always be going on when you can.

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Originally Posted by Zenmaku

BfB should always be on cooldown because it will constantly increase your DPS. The only times you want to avoid it are times you are guaranteed to take lots of damage (like Garuda when adds spawn).
I usually use IR early and keep it on CD as much as possible. I use Life Surge only for either a Power Surge Jump or a Full Thrust for the huge guaranteed Crit. But yeah, generally IR + BfB is a big combination that should always be going on when you can.

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Right now I start up with BfB once I got my Heavy Thrust, Disembowel up. I use TTT with a Life Surge on my Full Thrust, and after that I activate my Internal Release.

Would you say this is a good way to use my cooldowns?

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Originally Posted by Destination

I have a question, i used the damage meter app, but saw that dots are not displayed. Can we use the damage meter usefull as a dragoon?

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Right now I am very wary of any parser due to their current issue with DoTs, and would only use them as a general assessment of your damage and not for exact numbers. The threat meter can be handy for judging certain things, but be careful about using it to compare yourself against other classes since buffs (particularly bard group buffs) do give threat, and many classes have threat drops in their rotation.

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Originally Posted by Maxin_Rudy

where does Accuracy goes in the chart?

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Accuracy would go in on an as needed basis. You want to plan ahead for coil, but if you don't plan on getting there anytime soon you don't want to be too concerned about it. In the area of ~400-430 is more than fine for pre-Coil, but people are reporting misses as high as 460 once inside (I'm at 460-something I think and still miss on occasion, I'll recheck this in the coming week), so you'll want to be headed towards ~450-460 by the time you've downed a couple bosses. Misses really screw Dragoons, moreso than almost anyone else, so be sure not to ignore your accuracy stat.

A wonderful guide, thank the OP and the others for writing it!

What are the most important stats for DRG? Is it STR, crit rate, then determination? Or do you want skill speed?

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Originally Posted by rweezy

What are the most important stats for DRG? Is it STR, crit rate, then determination? Or do you want skill speed?

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That information can be found in the guide

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

A wonderful guide, thank the OP and the others for writing it!

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Thanks! I'm really pleased people are finding the information useful and the community has taken the thread in the direction of trying to optimize the dragoon class rather than letting it devolve into complaints and comparisons of who has the better dps.

I just started to level my lancer since I am refilling dragoon instead of summoner which is my lv 50.

What cross class skills are essential for dragoon dps?

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Originally Posted by AhriSazame

What cross class skills are essential for dragoon dps?

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This is in the guide