(Un)Official Arcanist/Summmoner Feedback Thread

We still asking for EGI to be big pile of shit right now.

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Originally Posted by yumeyume

Summoner class needs a better Limit Break.

(1) I don't know where I get the cane that do the Limit Break - The cane has nothing to do with summoner so far.

(2) It would be better if we can summon our pet to do a big Limit Break.

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That would be too awesome for words.

And it would make summoner more summoner-like.

So of course its not going to happen =D

Mostly though, it would make every other class jealous.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,

I just wanted to let you know a bit about "Bane" and that we are planning to make adjustments to the action help text.

“Bane” can spread to up to three enemies. We balanced it in this way due to the fact that the action from the Garuda egi extends effect durations to the point where you can maintain close to a 30 second DoT, arcanists can utilize other magic, and pets deal their own damage.

Compared to black mage’s “Fire II,” it’s somewhat inferior as burst damage, but depending on the situation “Bane” can deal more damage, so consider that fact that different situations lend themselves to different jobs.

We apologize that the number of enemies “Bane” spreads to is not written clearly and we will be adjusting this in patch 2.1.

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You can spread to more enemies with multiple Bane uses, so I don't really agree with the logic here. It should spread to all enemies as stated, not have the help text changed.

what about giving Summoner the Death magic no? and make it 100% effective... on bosses too -.-
Or doom with the option to spread it too with bane to a full instance...

Resume: Stop crying about your job and learn how to play it...

EDIT: BLMs do high burst damage to single target
dont come with fire II and Blizzard II theories since they do not work... with relic+1 full dl and hero ring my fire II with Astral fire III is around 400 dmg and i can use it only 3-4 times so thats 1.2 - 1.6k dmg needing to rotate my skills (in other words 10+ seconds without doing no AoE damage) and in those 10 seconds your debuffs hit 3x... doing way more damage than my fire II...
about Blizzard II its true we can spam it easilly... but since we need to be right next to monsters, we get aggro and die preety fast since BLM are squishy.

So between crap damage or die... i'd say BLMs arent better than SMN

For the people talking about mana ending... my arcanist at lv 20ish have aetherflowII only... and i use Bio + Miasma + Thunder I + Aero (which is alot of mana used)... and i've never NEVER run out of mana... this means 2 things: 1- you dont know how to play SMN period or 2- you are using your mana regens way too late and eventually run out of mana because you used badly your mana regen buffs and now they're on cooldown (which means you dont know how to play it either).

2nd edit: I just spoke with 3 high geared summoners from my FC and they all confirmed that is ... nearlly impossible for a summoner to run out of mana at high level instances (end of the edit)

So yeah classes are more or less balanced... there are some minor issues that SE will fix over time, but this aint one of them.

P.S. i'm sorry if i look angry or anything, but i'ts not the case... neither i'm trying to flame on.

restricting bane like that is laughable, no way does bane more dmg than fire2 ....

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

That rotation was with shadowflare (notice the 25*1.5, since it seems to autocrit).

And SMNs actually run out of mana, period, as opposed to BLM.

With more and more targets SMN are more and more gimped in terms of AoE damage, as tri-disaster and miasmaII are completely laughable.

EDIT: also I didn't include in flare. For something ridiculous like 500 potency as the last attack.

I figure that balances having to use blizzard III once.

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And summoners have a pet dealing damage as well, not to mention all that damage you mentioned are DoTs that can keep going for 10+seconds before needing to reapply. So it's what you calculated for AoE damage + Single target focus of pet + other actions you can be using WHILE keeping that damage

VS

Fire II.

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Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

And summoners have a pet dealing damage as well, not to mention all that damage you mentioned are DoTs that can keep going for 10+seconds before needing to reapply. So it's what you calculated for AoE damage + Single target focus of pet + other actions you can be using WHILE keeping that damage

VS

Fire II.

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If you actually read the synopsis, you would understand I already took into consideration "everything we can do".

Its true that summoners are definitely the kings of cleave, aka 2-4 targets or so.

Pet damage is negilgible (90 potency every 3 seconds, on one mob, is less than 10 potency contribution in a huge aoe environment, the one we're talking about here), aside from a minute cd (does even compare to swiftcast flare) and enkindle (which again, does less damage than flare).

But for AoE, its an unnecessary restriction to bane.

Actually scratch that, I wouldn't mind bane being the way it is if it prioritizes unDotted enemies for spread, and the cooldown was reduced to 3-6 seconds or removed entirely.

Then it would be an actual choice whether its worth using multiple times on a big mobs of monsters vs fester for more damage cleave/single target.

Please actually read what I wrote before you debate it.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Summoners do 35 + 35 + 40 + 25*1.5 = 147.5 damage every 3 seconds with Bane.

Their only other AoE is Tri-Disaster, which is also does 30 damage every 3 seconds.

This is a total of 177.5 damage.

If you also Miasma II, you get 187.5.

BLM, using only Fire II, does 100 * ~1.8 = 180 damage each fire II, again every 3 seconds.

Please tell me how Bane only spreading to 3 targets is balanced, and which fight has Bane doing more damage than Fire II.

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All that math and you still don't get it. While the blm keeps casting fire2, the smn can be casting ruin 3 all the while it's egi continues to attack. You completely ignored these factors in your DPS every 3 seconds.

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Originally Posted by MasamuneBranford

All that math and you still don't get it. While the blm keeps casting fire2, the smn can be casting ruin 3 all the while it's egi continues to attack. You completely ignored these factors in your DPS every 3 seconds.

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Ruin is not AoE. Neither is the egi. In AoE situations doing single target to 1 out of 6 mobs is pointless.

SMN is GROSSLY inferior to BLM AoE after this nerf. Power pulling (Ie multiple packs at once) is no longer worth a damn with a SMN. This is bullshit.

what nerf? we're getting an aoe nerf or something?

Mass AoE was always better for BLM and Bard.

The problem with Bane is that it's our only source of viable AoE. It needs to be removed from the Aetherflow Requirement and just have it restricted by its current cooldown.

I want to summon the carbuncles again give them back for the summoner job, and give each pet another skill.

I also want more pets.

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

Mass AoE was always better for BLM and Bard.

The problem with Bane is that it's our only source of viable AoE. It needs to be removed from the Aetherflow Requirement and just have it restricted by its current cooldown.

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Right right, it was always a bit worse. Now it's like not even in the same zip code worse... It's really dumb.

Summoner NEEDS to be pet focused and not DOT focused.

Remember the good ole days when Summoner was all about the Summons?

The XIV Summoner is a good Job, but its not Final Fantasy, and not a Summoner.

It's funny how the dev mentions that dots can be extended by contagion and then spread by bane, with the max amount of targets being 3. Even that is counter-intuitive as bane has a 15% chance to reset the dots' duration to its' original duration, negating contagion's effect. 15% of the time, bane is being counter-productive.

Why does this chance even exist? Can it not be changed to something more useful? Instead of a 15% chance to reset the duration of the dots, can't it be changed to something along the lines of 15% chance of increasing the dots' by another 15 seconds? It's insulting that one of our more useful abilities has such a stupid drawback. They counted players on using contagion, then using bane, but made bane have an effect that negates contagion. THIS MAKES NO SENSE.

This is just dumb, bane spreading for 3 targets only? It is like telling you do not go to BC turn 4 or speed run with a summoner, not to mention our aoe dps isnt that great compare with whitemage,blackmage at the 1st place, i have no idea why would they nerf bane at all
I am unsubscribe my monthly due to this change alone, not threatening, but i honestly do not enjoy playing my summoner/scholar anymore

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,

I just wanted to let you know a bit about "Bane" and that we are planning to make adjustments to the action help text.

“Bane” can spread to up to three enemies. We balanced it in this way due to the fact that the action from the Garuda egi extends effect durations to the point where you can maintain close to a 30 second DoT, arcanists can utilize other magic, and pets deal their own damage.

Compared to black mage’s “Fire II,” it’s somewhat inferior as burst damage, but depending on the situation “Bane” can deal more damage, so consider that fact that different situations lend themselves to different jobs.

We apologize that the number of enemies “Bane” spreads to is not written clearly and we will be adjusting this in patch 2.1.

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Not cool bro.

It's enough that you need aetherflow and can only hit WITHIN 5 YALMS of the target after a 3-dot setup time (which honestly should be the things that are considered penalty enough...)--- why can a BLM's fire 2 / flare (super instant burst damage) hit virtually anything in that radius, not be considered overpowered, yet ours, which is limited by an even longer CD (since you can flare twice before you can BANE twice), a 3-dot setup time, and the need for incredibly close enemies to spread to, only hit 3 of them?

ANYTHING you are worried about with abusing a large pull and mass AOE death can be done with a BLM double flare / fire II. It's really not acceptable to make the one class that is specifically made for AoE DoTs suck more at it than a class which already has the advantage in spell rotation / single target damage. Completely playing favorites to BLM here-- there is literally no reason to make bane suck unless you intend to make all AoE spells suck just as much with this so-called "balanced" "3-enemy" limit.

AND before I finish this rant, you know what else makes bane suck already? We have no way to control which "3 targets" get chosen for the spread when we do it....is that fair? Not only do you limit us, but even if we try our best to center a certain enemy it can spread to any 3 that happen to be in that small radius. SO if I do that and then switch to an unaffected target, go re-setting up my 3 dots, and try to bane from him, sometimes it hits already dotted targets instead of the fresh ones I WANT it to bane.

Playing favorites with AoE really isn't cool bro. You call it balance yet have another class doing the exact same damage your worried about in an even easier, faster form and going unchecked.

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Originally Posted by tertatos

This is just dumb, bane spreading for 3 targets only? It is like telling you do not go to BC turn 4 or speed run with a summoner, not to mention our aoe dps isnt that great compare with whitemage,blackmage at the 1st place, i have no idea why would they nerf bane at all
I am unsubscribe my monthly due to this change alone, not threatening, but i honestly do not enjoy playing my summoner/scholar anymore

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Ehm it's already like this. it's only about the description not telling you so far...

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

Ehm it's already like this. it's only about the description not telling you so far...

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I know, i thought it was a bug, and they are going to fix it sooner or later, never realize they are intendly nerfed it

Since I'm sure most of the people participating in the conversation are either summoner or blackmage, I'll throw in my unbiased two cents (as a dragoon).

What's wrong with blackmage have superior AOE potential? It's good to have certain jobs that excel in specific areas. Monk has a higher sustained dps than dragoon, but it comes with the drawback of a lot of movement and a short amount of leeway when it comes to keeping Greased Lightning up. Paladin takes a lot less damage than Warrior, but Warrior does more damage itself. Given Warrior is definitely in need a buff, but the idea is there. Whitemage has more raw healing and Scholar has some damage reduction buffs. Each job is supposed to have a unique feel and a semi-unique position in a party.

But... I do agree with people that Summoner should be more about its avatars and less about the caster. It's such a cool job, not to mention a major staple of the brand, and could be a lot more flashy in it's abilities rather than a dot whore.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

What's wrong with blackmage have superior AOE potential?
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i am pretty sure no one is complaining blackmages have superior aoe damage than summoners..which they already do before the bane nerfed,
we are not asking to have aoe damage that surpass blackmage either.

What we want to address is, you can nerf our aoe damage if you think it is a little too much, but why the hell you take away our only decent ability to aoe?
there are thousand of way to nerf it properly, ex-- the more targets that affected by bane the lesser damage it will deal to all the affected target.
But putting a target limitation is just so wrong...unless every fucking aoe is 3 targets only, then i will fucking agree with the nerfed.

Well, that explains why I always seemed to miss my Bane's on Turn 4. I thought the range was just stupidly small (which it is) but I never thought it was being actively reduced. I'm not saying our AoE is bad, I still think 3x dots rolling (plus Miasma II which isn't limited to 3 targets, plus Shadowflare) is good AoE in a situtation where the mobs are huddled together and you have plenty of time to kill things (such as Turn 4). However, our burst AoE is beyond garbage. Tri-disaster is pathetic, hits like a wet noodle, and it has a ridiculous cast time. Enkindle can't be relied on, as its a huge cooldown, which effectively means you only use it once per fight.

Anywho, its pretty clear that BLM is going to win the AoE DPS race. Any BLM who can't effectively AoE and thinks their AoE is poor, isn't doing it right.

Honestly I would rather see changes for Egi right now any way. They need more robust skill list that gives the Summoner options rather than just using Garuda. This is going to be even more painfully obvious when Shiva, Ramuh, and Leviathan hit the scene. Are we simple going to replace Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda with the new three?

＠Tertatos

Just to be clear, this was not a nerf. Bane spreading to three targets has always been the design, but the description did not state as such.

@Ryans

I have to agree with Tertatos. No one is complaining that Black Mage has superior AOE damage. The problem is every ranged DPS class a reliable area attack that hits all targets except summoner.

Black Mage - Blizzard II, Fire II, Flare
Bard - Quick Knock (although its a cone), Rain of Death, Wide Volley
Summoner - .....

If they're so concerned with us "doing more damage" by hitting all enemies in an area, like every other ranged DPS, why not simply change the effect of Bane?

Example:

Bane - Infects all nearby enemies with "plague" status effect.
Plague: Deals unaspected damage over time.
Potency: 110
Duration: 15 seconds
* Can only be applied to targets with X status effect.

Comparing with Black Mage as an example, consider that Black Mage's Fire II has a potency of 100 (increased by Umbral Fire, Blizzard II has a potency of 100, and they both have a casting time of roughly 2.5 seconds, meaning their damage can be applied faster than the every 3 seconds that DoTs tick based on the system's timer. There's also the occasional Flare with a potency of 260.
(Edit: Corrected the potency of Fire II)

Does a skill such as this seem so unreasonable?

Fire II is only 100 potency.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

So a person in my FC confirmed my suspicions.


Pets don't get benefit from food.


I knew pets didn't get benefits from INT pots if you summoned them during the buff, but we've been trying to figure out the accuracy cap for pets.

442 is ~99-99.5% accuracy for pets(on turn 5). This is my personal accuracy and test.

Person in FC was at 423. Pet parsed around 90% accuracy. They used Stuffed Cabbage and sat at 444 accuracy.

Then they summoned the pet.

It still missed the same % as before. It still had ~90% accuracy.

So it seems pets do not get any food buffs, even if you summon them afterwards.


So while trying to test how much accuracy is needed, we found this unfortunate bug.

At least, I hope it's a bug.


Spread the word!

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

I have to agree with Tertatos. No one is complaining that Black Mage has superior AOE damage. The problem is every ranged DPS class a reliable area attack that hits all targets except summoner.

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Tri-Disaster, Miasma II, Shadow Flare, Pet AoE skills. Shadow Flare has an added(and very useful) bonus of permanent slow. Miasma II applies Disease which is VERY helpful on Turn 4.

Guys, let's not let this non-change to bane overshadow some bigger issues. Personally, our AoE is "fine." We're great at turn 4, and the only time we can't AoE similar to a BLM is during the huge pulls in WP. That's it--And even then, we aren't too far behind. Yes, we can't ever possibly match 2x Flare, but that's a gimmick specifically associated with these big pulls and uses a CD. We're also vastly superior to anyone else on 2-4 targets.

Also, from what I have observed, Bane resetting a Contagion DoT has been fixed.
They knew about it from my thread:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...5-proc-chance.

And I haven't noticed it since that last bigger hotfix patch.

The only thing that needs to change, imo, is that Bane needs a priority for who the DoTs get spread to. It should prioritize targets that don't have the DoTs on them.




I have a thought that, maybe, pets don't get affected by materia, either. That may be why I see 100% accuracy, but my pet sees ~99-99.5%(-12 acc on belt would put my pet at 430 accuracy). I'll try to test this Monday. Already we know Food doesn't work with pets, which means we're at a disadvantage compared to everyone else(~20-25% of our DPS not getting food contribution), but it can also be a bigger issue of Materia having less of a value.

Hmm only spreads to three, no wonder SMNs aoe is completely worthless. Even if it did spread to everyone its still not as good as BLM but at least it wouldnt be essentially worthless. Why ever bring a summoner for dungeon speedruns when you could bring a BLM?

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Originally Posted by Kevee

Tri-Disaster, Miasma II, Shadow Flare, Pet AoE skills. Shadow Flare has an added(and very useful) bonus of permanent slow. Miasma II applies Disease which is VERY helpful on Turn 4.

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We're going to have to agree to disagree on what can be considered reliable area attack damage.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,

I just wanted to let you know a bit about "Bane" and that we are planning to make adjustments to the action help text.

“Bane” can spread to up to three enemies. We balanced it in this way due to the fact that the action from the Garuda egi extends effect durations to the point where you can maintain close to a 30 second DoT, arcanists can utilize other magic, and pets deal their own damage.

Compared to black mage’s “Fire II,” it’s somewhat inferior as burst damage, but depending on the situation “Bane” can deal more damage, so consider that fact that different situations lend themselves to different jobs.

We apologize that the number of enemies “Bane” spreads to is not written clearly and we will be adjusting this in patch 2.1.

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Sorry to invade this thread, but what about scholars? They don't have any duration increasing buffs from egi!

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Originally Posted by wizzed

Sorry to invade this thread, but what about scholars? They don't have any duration increasing buffs from egi!

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And like SMNs their aoe in inferior compared to WHMs :P

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Originally Posted by FrionielHope

And like SMNs their aoe in inferior compared to WHMs :P

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Only in utility(if the mobs can be stunned), and on more than 4 targets.

Otherwise SCH wins.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

We're going to have to agree to disagree on what can be considered reliable area attack damage.

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What is reliable if "I cast/place the spell and it hits" isn't reliable?

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Originally Posted by Kevee

What is reliable if "I cast/place the spell and it hits" isn't reliable?

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Probably means if a mob moves out of shadow flare, sometimes it can't be helped in certain fights, but as a tank I'll always try to keep mobs positioned on shadow flare/flaming arrow.

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Originally Posted by Leoheart

Probably means if a mob moves out of shadow flare, sometimes it can't be helped in certain fights, but as a tank I'll always try to keep mobs positioned on shadow flare/flaming arrow.

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Well, yeah, but if mobs are moving that means you probably won't hit all of them with your AoE anyways.


SMN AoE is fine. Yes, we can't AoE 5+ targets like a BLM can, that doesn't make our AoE bad.

Especially since we're the undisputed kings/queens of 2-4 targets.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

Well, yeah, but if mobs are moving that means you probably won't hit all of them with your AoE anyways.


SMN AoE is fine. Yes, we can't AoE 5+ targets like a BLM can, that doesn't make our AoE bad.

Especially since we're the undisputed kings/queens of 2-4 targets.

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It's situational at best, the strongest benefit of bane etc is the fact you can still perform other actions while your dots are ticking, a blm cannot do that with fire II.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

What is reliable if "I cast/place the spell and it hits" isn't reliable?

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You cast, place, and it hits... for 25 potency.

Putting utilities aside, having to stack three spells (Shadow Flare, Miasma II, and Tri-Disaster(?)) for a combined 65-75 potency, when any other ranged DPS can use just one spell or skill for 100 potency is okay with you?

I'm fine with not being a burst class, but I find the lack of any area attack with considerable upfront damage that isn't stuck on a 5 minute timer (and sometimes doesn't even fire off due to buggy pet AI) to be disappointing.

So as I said, we'll have to agree to disagree on what's reliable area attack damage.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

Putting utilities aside, having to stack three spells (Shadow Flare, Miasma II, and Tri-Disaster(?)) for a combined 65-75 potency, when any other ranged DPS can use just one spell or skill for 100 potency is okay with you?

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In 3 seconds(less because you pre-use Swiftcast) we have 375 + 70 Potency per target. That's 20p initially, and 47.5p/3s just from 2 skills.

Not including Bane, Pet, Tri-Disaster.

You can agree to disagree all you want, but we're not as far behind as you think, and we should be behind for how far ahead we are with 2-4 targets.

This thread isn't about who's right and who's wrong, so please watch your tone.

If you don't think there's a problem with Summoner, you're entitled to your opinion, that's what this thread is for. I'm going to let this discussion end here before it leads somewhere it doesn't need to go.

Does anyone have any non-Bane related feedback?

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

Does anyone have any non-Bane related feedback?

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Originally Posted by Kevee

So a person in my FC confirmed my suspicions.


Pets don't get benefit from food.


I knew pets didn't get benefits from INT pots if you summoned them during the buff, but we've been trying to figure out the accuracy cap for pets.

442 is ~99-99.5% accuracy for pets(on turn 5). This is my personal accuracy and test.

Person in FC was at 423. Pet parsed around 90% accuracy. They used Stuffed Cabbage and sat at 444 accuracy.

Then they summoned the pet.

It still missed the same % as before. It still had ~90% accuracy.

So it seems pets do not get any food buffs, even if you summon them afterwards.


So while trying to test how much accuracy is needed, we found this unfortunate bug.

At least, I hope it's a bug.


Spread the word!

I have a thought that, maybe, pets don't get affected by materia, either. That may be why I see 100% accuracy, but my pet sees ~99-99.5%(-12 acc on belt would put my pet at 430 accuracy). I'll try to test this Monday. Already we know Food doesn't work with pets, which means we're at a disadvantage compared to everyone else(~20-25% of our DPS not getting food contribution), but it can also be a bigger issue of Materia having less of a value.

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This is more important than a tool-tip change, and it has now been glossed over--Twice.

[QUOTE=Kevee;1486263]Only in utility(if the mobs can be stunned), and on more than 4 targets.

Otherwise SCH wins.

Not really, Holy is 250 potency from what I heard, vs around 140 from sch if you apply all your bane dots and shadow flare and miasma 2. thats an insane amount of time to get everything up, and usually a whm only needs 3 or 4 holies to finish a pack if they have other people AOEing. 170 for SMN beats BLMs 100 but by the time SMN gets everything up a BLM couldve had the things near dead already

Honestly I think its ok if BLMs are a bit better for large groups of aoe if SMN is better single target. But Im not sure thats the case, apparently the parsers still aren't accurate so it's hard to know who does more damage. Considering the sustained nature of SMN vs burst of BLM I would hope they'd do at least 10% more damage than BLM.

The food thing isnt surprising, I kind of figured it was the case\

EDIT: Forgot SCH doesnt have tri disaster